Dovetail Joint

[tippie53]

The key to all neck joints is security and joint integrity . It the joint is designed to withstand the forces applied and the angle is correct , it should do the job.
1 fact about a well fit dovetail joint is that it is the only neck joint that can support the string load without a mechanical fastener . In all other designs you have to rely on the bolt or screw.
My friend Wayne Henderson can do a dovetail in less than a 2 minutes. He uses a table saw , and yes I have seen him do it. He worked out a system that works for him.

[Ben-Had]

I really think the dovetail is a great joint, and if I could, I would chose it. I'm not sure how many more guitars I'll make. Is it worth my time to master that joint? Other than trying and trying again, I don't see any way of becoming expert at it.

I was having some trouble with it as well even after watching the videos what seemed to be like a 1000 times. I finally set up a time to have John Hall work with me on it. We started at 8 am and by lunch time I had it down. My problem was more in my technique and hand positioning as I sanded (the way I was angling the sanding block). I knew all the steps in the right order but was missing the subtleties that can vary from person to person and can't really be shown in a video. To me nothing beats hands on training. Was well worth the 900 mile round trip from NC to PA.

[naccoachbob]

I really think the dovetail is a great joint, and if I could, I would chose it. I'm not sure how many more guitars I'll make. Is it worth my time to master that joint? Other than trying and trying again, I don't see any way of becoming expert at it.

I was having some trouble with it as well even after watching the videos what seemed to be like a 1000 times. I finally set up a time to have John Hall work with me on it. We started at 8 am and by lunch time I had it down. My problem was more in my technique and hand positioning as I sanded (the way I was angling the sanding block). I knew all the steps in the right order but was missing the subtleties that can vary from person to person and can't really be shown in a video. To me nothing beats hands on training. Was well worth the 900 mile round trip from NC to PA.

I might try doing the same thing. I'd have to find someone near me in East Texas, Louisiana, Arkansas, or Extreme Southeast Oklahoma. Hands on training is absolutely the best.

John Hall, are you up for a vacation in Texas? :)

[tippie53]

My son lives in Austin
I hope to get there this year

[naccoachbob]

Cool, though I'm about 4 hours northeast of Austin. If you happen to drive, you might could end up coming thru Nacogdoches. I'd like to know if you do. It's a heckuva long drive. I used to make the trip from here to Virginia Beach..............but I was much younger then. :)

[Darryl Young]

I too like the thought of a butt joint neck held only by bolts. In my mind, it's no different than a mortise and tenon as the mortise and tenon is a loose fit so you can adjust the neck angle (side-to-side and up/down) so what does it really do for neck integrity? So both on a mortise/tenon or a butt joint neck, it seems the critical fit is the heel of the neck to the sides and the bolts holding the neck tight against the sides. I can't see any significant difference. Kinniard, Proulx and other high end builders use it but it gets poo-poo'ed here as a low class, cheap option. Go figure.

If it doesn't work out with John Hall, another option for you to learn a dovetail joint is to contact John Gathright in Southwest Arkansas. He is an official Matin repair guy and has reset many necks. I would go with John Hall if you have that option. While I like the bolt-on option, I too would like to learn how to fit a dovetail joint.

[B. Howard]

In my mind, it's no different than a mortise and tenon as the mortise and tenon is a loose fit so you can adjust the neck angle (side-to-side and up/down)
.

Not if done correctly. A mortise and tenon joint should not be loose or it is not actually a joint.The only advantage using bolts has is in disassembelly versus a glued M&T joint..

[Darryl Young]

I'll go out on a limb and say that most mortise and tenon bolt-on necks aren't glued in place. Like the old Taylor neck for example......and I can only assume it's done "properly" by the factory.....or at least as designed.

The article I read by Bob Taylor says you can fit the neck by flossing the cheeks so that requires at least a semi-loose fit of the tenon in the mortise else the neck wouldn't move.

In my mind, it's no different than a mortise and tenon as the mortise and tenon is a loose fit so you can adjust the neck angle (side-to-side and up/down)
.

Not if done correctly. A mortise and tenon joint should not be loose or it is not actually a joint.The only advantage using bolts has is in disassembelly versus a glued M&T joint..

[B. Howard]

What you are missing its that while they are not glued the joint still fits tight enough that it could be. The bolts keep the neck from falling off instead of glue. The tenon is not a loose, sloppy fit in the mortise. Been a pro wood worker my whole life and don't know what a semi loose fit on a tenon is.......they either fit proper or they don't, no matter if they are held by bolts or glue. I have done plenty of both over the years in many different applications. I think what Taylor is saying is that they are fit loose enough that they can be slipped together and apart without the use of a mallet, that is not to say that they are loose enough to permit any side to side movement to adjust center-lines as you suggest.

[Darryl Young]

Interesting Brian. I appreciate your responses as I agree with you that I'm missing some information.

So when you reset an older style Taylor neck to adjust the string action height, are you saying you floss the cheeks on the heel of the neck AND floss the tenon to allow the neck angle to change? My experience with these style necks is that the tenon fits fairly well so might limit movement of the neck side-to-side a little but the tenon fit allows movement of the neck up and down so the neck angle affecting string height can be easily adjusted. Of course I don't have close to your experience but I've never had to sand the tenon to allow neck movement.......so that is what I mean by a semi-loose fit (my made up term). So if the tenon is not limiting movement of the neck (I just mentioned I change the neck angle side-to-side and up-down without sanding the tenon or mortise), then what is restricting movement of the neck? I think its the fit of the cheeks to the sides of the guitar and the tension on the bolts......and possibly the fit of the bolt in the bolt hole if it happens to be tight. Its difficult for me to say the fit of the tenon to the mortise is the answer when i just changed the angle of the neck with no change to mortise or tenon. So the mortise/tenon fit may or may not be in play.......or might be restricting neck movement in some directions but not all directions. Does that make sense?