Seating Dovetail Neck Securely

[tippie53]

I have to say , don't give up on the dovetail . It is worth learning . There is some evidence that Dovetail joints are better tonally to other systems

http://digitaleditions.sheridan.com/pub ... =&ver=flex

Martin is doing a new joint that is a sliding dovetail to replace the M&T. It took me a few tries till I mastered this but it is the only neck joint I use.

Keep it simple and watch close to the mating surfaces . Once glued in , the neck is secure.

[tippie53]

thanks Rick .

[stevemac00]

I was beginning to feel like I was in a groundhog day movie as I glued up shims four times. This time I've got the best fit so far and it takes two good wallops with the dead-blow hammer to free it each fit.

But I still don't have the angle correct and I've only got about another 1/32" to go before flush.

• I've got the relief in the neck.
  I take off a little on each side of the lower half of the heel
  I take a similar amount off each side of the upper half of the dovetail

I quit for the day because I really am fearful to continue as it fits so good otherwise. But the height above the bridge location isn't quite enough.

[tippie53]

If you are 1/16 above the bridge you are good. You may take a little off the bridge if you need to. Martin has 4 sizes of bridges.
Keep it simple and don't overthink it.

[B. Howard]

John --
I agree that learning how to make and repair dovetails is a good thing. They're going to be around as long as Martins are!

But I have to disagree with saying that there's evidence that they're in any way better than mortise-and-tenon or butt joints or any other system. The fact that the production guy at Martin prefers them is not evidence, it's opinion. If someone could show me data that points to dovetails being in some way superior to other neck joints -- superior in terms of durability or tone, either one -- I'd change my thinking immediately. But to my knowledge no one has ever found from hard evidence that there was any measurable difference.

I believe that Martin historically used the dovetail because it best fit their production method. C.F. Martin built guitars with mortise-and-tenon construction at the same time as he used dovetails; once he established the factory, he switched to one consistent method -- dovetails. After that, the company was so conservative, it didn't experiment (with anything!) until it was forced to by the competition. Hence, dovetails, then and now.

At this point, Martin is working hard to hold its market position. They try new materials and new designs and simultaneously they strongly promote their traditional heritage. The dovetail is part of that marketing strategy, not proof of its superiority.

Lets leave tone out of the discussion, that's simply an argument over vanilla or chocolate.

Martin does it this way because it is tradition, in the 1850's screws, bolts and even nails were still somewhat rare and relatively expensive. These items did not see any real use in any woodworking until well into the industrial revolution, very late 1800's. Instead tried and true woodworking and joinery were used to build things, guitars, furniture, whatever. The compound dovetail joint is beautiful and simple, requiring not so much as a peg to keep it secure if properly executed. I have built many things from furniture to large timber frame gazebos using this joint, quite a few of which have no glue what so ever to allow large scale pieces to be knocked down and moved with no mechanical hardware and the stresses and distortions that it can introduce. A properly fit dovetail should press together by hand and require a mallet to get it apart. I have actually strung up a guitar with no glue in the dovetail and it held tune and played great and would likely do so until the neck received a strong enough blow to unseat the joint. Can't see a stronger joint than that, can you? Can you do that with any bolt on design without using the bolts? I doubt it. Also have you ever heard any one say " I won't buy that guitar cause it's got a dovetail neck"? I haven't, but I have heard many times " I won't buy that because it's a bolt on neck" , I have not purchased quite a few guitars simply for that reason. So I guess in the end what I am trying to say is that a dovetail joint typically shows a higher level of craftsmanship which usually means higher quality.

[B. Howard]

Yes I guess I do feel strongly about it, as I said I am one of those snobs who refused to buy a very nice guitar simply because I didn't like the neck attachment method. Do these other methods function? yes they do, Taylor's system is really beautiful but most likely only obtainable in a CNC production environment. But one must wonder why if the bolt on neck is superior and was used as early as 1815 then why was it mostly abandoned for 150 years in favor of a glued dovetail? Many attempts over the years have come and gone to make necks either adjustable or easier to reset, yet the dovetail or some other version of a glue set neck has remained the standard on most premium guitars until fairly recently. One thing all the makers you mention as bolt on proponents have in common, they do not build guitars by hand one at a time as a solo endeavor, they run factories. And like it or not bolt on necks are just cheaper to produce. I wonder what they would be doing if they did build one at a time without any workers or apprentices? As a side note I see lots of import guitars these days that are assembled with hot melt glue. Even though they are very functional and actually sound way better than one may expect from being built with glue sticks, I will not be using the glue gun anymore than I would a bolt on neck. These things are just not for me, not my style, but of course I do a lot of work by hand. If they are yours then by all means carry on. But I do think one should learn how to do a dovetail before moving on to something else, if for no other reason than to build your skills.