Saga Kit stories and Intonation problems

[naccoachbob]

John Hall at Blues Creek Guitars sold me a Strat-type electric SAGA kit last year with some upgraded pickups. His choice of pickups was excellent. The kit came out fine, and I'm a happy guy with this guitar. Did a helluva paint job on it, which is about 95% of building an electric kit.
When I got it, I didn't realize the nut slots needed to be cut lower, and John advised me to do so. I did so.
A friend who's an excellent player helped me with intonation prior to cutting the slots, and that's a pretty easy procedure. So tonight I was trying to improve the intonation because the F chord was ringing pretty sharp. Well all kinds of factors come into play here. Nut height, string height at 12th fret, (probably relief, but I'm thinking it's ok), and string length.
Here are the string above 1st fret measurements which is probably predominately controlled by nut slot height, but the saddle plays a pretty good part as well.
6th - .013, 5th - .017, 4th - .016, 3rd - .015, 2nd - .010, and 1st -.007.
Edit: I have the intonation correct for all 6 strings at the 12th fret. Ben made me aware that I didn't put that in.
The guitar when playing the F chord (I only play the first 5 strings, leaving the 6th string muted most of the time) sounds about 8 cents sharp.
Individually the strings are as follow: 5th 8 cents sharp, 4th right on, 3rd 8 cents sharp, and 2 and 1 are right on as well.
My string height at 12th fret (no capos) follows:
6th - 6/64, 5th - 5.5/64, 4th - 5/64, 3rd - 4.5/64, 2nd - 4/64 and 1st - 4/64.
The first thing that stands out to me is that the 5th and 3rd string heights at 1st fret are taller than all but the 4th string (and it rings a true F when fretted for an F chord).
No buzzes on this jewel - fret work was required initially.
So, are my heights at 1st and 12th fret good? Should I shave a bit on the 5th and 3rd strings?
Here's a pic of the guitar that I think I posted here when it was built:



Thanks for any help you all can give.
Bob

[Ben-Had]

I'd lengthen the 2 sharp strings and re-check intonation until it was right. The other numbers are good if they're good for you.

[naccoachbob]

Ben, both strings show good at 12th fret for intonation. It's just that they're sharp when making the F chord.
I edited my first post since you brought that to my attention. Thanks.

[deadedith]

You'all already know this so don't think I'm talking down to you - but that first fret F chord will play sharp even on some high end electrics, especially using 9's. I've had to move up to some 10's and not reef down too hard on the strings for that F.

[Jim_H]

If you use your tuner on the notes of the chord using a very light touch (i.e not bending the string behind the fret) does it still play sharp? Or only if you press hard?

What is your string gauge and what is the fret height.

Having primary played acoustic Mediums my entire life, I really struggle with over gripping, especially barre chords, when I play electrics. Especially if they are light/extra light gauge and the frets are fairly high.

[naccoachbob]

I'm using 10's on this. Not sure of fret height, don't have any way of measuring that precisely, but pushing the string down onto the fret I can see about 2/64's under the string. They feel lower than my acoustic.
It's kinda funny that 3 of the strings are intonated pretty well on the F chord. The only thing I can think of is maybe cutting the nut slots down incrementally for some help.
It actually sounds pretty good now, much better than it did earlier today.
As to finger pressure, I'm not hitting too hard, but like you, I'm used to an acoustic, so I probably do grip a bit tight.
Thanks,
Bob

[tippie53]

the 3 things you need to be sure of
1st neck relief
2nd nut slot depth If you have the nut slot too hi you have to pull the strings too hard. Check this by fretting the 3rd fret and check clearance at the nut. .010 to .015 should be good
3rd you won't have perfect intonation on every fret so check your harmonics and the 12th fret . That should get you close

[Ben-Had]

Ben, both strings show good at 12th fret for intonation. It's just that they're sharp when making the F chord.
I edited my first post since you brought that to my attention. Thanks.

I checked my tele last night and it did the same thing (not quite 7 cents sharp, but sharp), perfect at 12. I couldn't hear it when played, sounded fine to me but then I don't have perfect pitch. Also, the harder I pressed the sharper it got. I have 10's on it too. If you can't tell the difference, I wouldn't worry about it.

[naccoachbob]

Thanks, Ben I'll play it for a few days and see if it still sounds good.
Might slightly chip away at the 2 nut slots just to push the envelope.
John, I'll do what you suggest as well. I used LMI's or Stew-Mac's fret height gauge with no fretting, just over the 1st fret and pressed down either side of the fret to come up with the numbers I gave in the opening post. I'll see what I get.
Thanks again everyone.
Bob

[Ben-Had]

getting the nut height right is important for both intonation and playability. It's one of the most common maladjustments we see in the repair shop, even on high-end and luthier-built instruments.

Got to agree with that 100%. I use a nut slot gauge to get the strings where I want, tried the ting thing but it didn't work as well for me. The numbers he gave were a little off from where I try to get them but not so much I thought it would be that drastic a difference. Get those bass strings too low and then the worry becomes buzz more than intonation. I think if it plays comfortable and you can't hear the sharpness (and I bet most couldn't) then - Party on!

If it helps, here's how I set mine (assuming leveled frets)-

1st - neck relief (.003) EDIT, EDIT, EDIT HIT WRONG KEY HERE SHOULD .006 - SORRY 6 KEY IS RIGHT ABOVE 3 AND i DIDN'T CATCH IT, .003 IS A LITTLE LOW. YOU MAY NOW RESUME YOUR NORMAL PROGRAMMING!
2nd - nut slots (e .010, B .010, G .011, D .013, A .015, E .017)
3rd - e 3/64 to E 4.5 (as measured at the 17th fret)