Laminating sides, and a no water no heat bending method

[Darryl Young]

So does Bob Taylor and his engineers have it all wrong too?

http://www.rtaylorguitars.com/Woods-Details-01.aspx

All that extra work is for nothing since (if I am understanding the premise) all the structural advantages disappear after the top and back are glued on?

They don't disappear, they become negligible. I'm sure a tick slows a cheetah down....but does it matter? That link is to advertising, probably the statements weren't even reviewed by Taylor's engineers much less approved. Also, that link discusses sold linings, not reverse kerf. Even if it were a statement by engineers regarding RK lining, it wouldn't make it necessarily so. I'm a mechanical engineer and work with several engineers (probably 50 in my building at work) and it's common to have different opinions.

[Darryl Young]

Dave, mass of the sides/lining may indeed make a tonal difference......might influence attack and sustain.

[johnnparchem]

Dave, mass of the sides/lining may indeed make a tonal difference......might influence attack and sustain.

I agree, the increased mass in that key place increases the impedance mismatch between the top and the sides, thus there is an increased amount of the waves reflected back into the top for good or for bad. There is less coupling. It can make a tonal difference. I just agree it is not a structural difference. I can change the sound of a top by putting my fingers on key places, but I have not made a relevant structural difference.

John

[Darryl Young]

I agree, the increased mass in that key place increases the impedance mismatch between the top and the sides, thus there is an increased amount of the waves reflected back into the top for good or for bad. There is less coupling. It can make a tonal difference. I just agree it is not a structural difference. I can change the sound of a top by putting my fingers on key places, but I have not made a relevant structural difference.

John

And by less coupling, do you mean less coupling with the sides? That makes sense.

[David L]

But it's still a plywood guitar (which may not be a bad thing). My inexperienced opinion is that if you increase mass then you also increase weight, increasing weight may decrease the guitars vibrating abilities, decreasing many of the things that we are mentioning here. Again, this may be so slight as to be negligible (if my opinion is even true).
When I was shopping for a guitar kit, I came across the usual suspects, Martin, Blue's Creek, Stewmac, etc.. (oddly enough I never found out about KMG until I discovered them on this forum). Through my internet guitar kit investigations I ran across U.S. Guitar Kits, they sell a sycamore laminated B&S kit and a sapele Laminated B&S kit both with solid spruce tops for $299.99 each, but wait, it gets better, shipping is free (in the U S) and each kit comes with a case included in the price. They were the first company that I deleted from my list of companies to buy a kit from. How can they beat everyone else's price by up to more than a couple of hundred dollars? I suspect that it's because they are selling a frigging plywood guitar, but they don't use the term plywood, they diguise it with words like laminated and veneered, insinuating that it is somehow more desireable than solid wood. Another point I would like to make is that I don't know of a single active KGF member that owns one (or admits to it). I wonder why that is so? Just saying...

Edit: By own one I'm refering to U.S. Kit Guitar. I know several poeple who own low end production laminate guitars and are quite happy with them.

David L

[deadedith]

I played a Guild dred for years before finding out it had laminated b+s. I would not throw a somogyi out a speeding car window because he used plywood sides, nor a Ramirez 1A classical, played by some foremost concert players , though it has plywood sides. There are other 'big names' (which got big by building great stuff) that use 'plywood" - I only drop the names to make a point - they are not cutting costs, they are improving their guitars (they think they are, and so do the people playing them) by using 'plywood' rather than solid wood sides.
Plus, plywood is laminated with the layers in cross-directions. I'm not sure that laminates as we are using the term is done the same way. Maybe I'm wrong.

[bobcef]

Interesting thread

[Darryl Young]

But it's still a plywood guitar (which may not be a bad thing). My inexperienced opinion is that if you increase mass then you also increase weight, increasing weight may decrease the guitars vibrating abilities, decreasing many of the things that we are mentioning here. Again, this may be so slight as to be negligible (if my opinion is even true). David L

Weight is just the force of gravity acting on a mass.......so mass and weight can be used interchangeably in this discussion. Weight isn't necessarily always a bad thing, it depends on where and how it's used. As mentioned above, Gore found that more mass in the sides increased sustain.......so maybe that's a good tradeoff. Some feel that when the top is vibrating (and most agree the top produces most of the sound) that less energy is lost if a the side is heavier. The therory is that a heavier side reflects more of the tops energy back as vibrations (in other words, less energy is lost vibrating the sides). So that might be a good thing if you want more sustain. Also, if you are a bluegrasser and you won't that whomp when you hammer-on the bass note of the G chord, maybe when the string is released from the pick it deflects further when pushing against more mass around the perimeter and gives you a stronger monopole attack (just speculating about stronger attack). If true, some folks would gladly trade off a little weight for those attributes (assuming they are true). I think you can build a heavy guitar that is underbuilt and a lightweight guitar that is overbuilt. So much depends on putting the stiffness and weight in the right place.

In my mind there is a significant difference between a luthier laminating sides for additional stiffness/weight and a company using some form of light plywood sides/back to cut cost. Must admit I bought a used Art & Simon Luthier dreadnaught that likely has ply sides/back and it doesn't sound too bad.......so it's a legitimate reduced cost option for some companys.

[Kevin Sjostrand]

Bob,
Do you guys have any Madagasscar rosewood plywood back and side sets for sale?
I might be interested...just kidding of course, but I love the look of that wood.

Kevin

[David L]

Hey Bob, I see that you're here. When can we expect to see a section on your website store that is strictly a "laminate" section?

And for you repair people, aren't laminates just wonderful?

David L