Unserviced kit vs scratch build

[deadedith]

John - well said.
Dave B

[tippie53]

I supply some very big name builders with kits , to the specs they want . While I may bend and contour the side set they still build the guitar . So I don't mind that some of my work is being passed off as the builders . I guess it may be a matter of semantics .
The thing is , the parts need to be made into the guitar so if you build it , it is yours . As I said , I never gave space as issue and rather blindly assumed ( never assume ) that most builder will gravitate to scratch building. I do not see that kit builders are below scratch builders , after all , we all learn that splinters hurt , Binding can be hard and it is a kick to play that first chord .
May the thrill never leave you .

[JJDonohue]

I actually know of at least 2 well-known professional builders who sell $6,000+ guitars where they assemble the bodies, final profile CNCd necks, glue on headplates and glue on fretboards. They are then sent out for finishing. After finishing, they are sent to a repair/setup guy who installs frets, tuners, glues on a CNCd bridge, fashions the nut and saddle and sets up the guitar per the customer's specs.

How's that for efficiency? There's no question that the work under the hood is done with experience, skill and care.

BTW...they look, sound and play wonderfully and the customers are none the wiser.

[Woody OKeefe]

Beside the intimidation of binding and the frustration of finishing, Kit guitars still need to be set up. I'm proud to be a kit guitar builder. All my fellow entertainers and musicians see my first guitar and say Wow you made that. Although I do explain that I didn't do everything.
I mean isn't outsourcing the American way? Ha Ha!
Thanks to all the suppliers.

[Eddie]

So from all I have read here the difference in a kit build and a scratch build is that the kit comes in a single box with the minimum amount of parts needed for the build. The kit may or may not be serviced, i.e., sides bent, plates joined, and rosette enlayed. After the box is open it just doesn't matter where the parts came from.

I have bent my own sides, joined plates and enlayed the rosette. I am fortunate enough to have room for the necessary tools to do it. I am not a skilled woodworker, mediocre at best, but I did not find any of those tasks difficult. Based on my vast experience of nearly one guitar, I would liken those tasks to what an apprentice could do under the direction of a master luthier. And I would certainly not claim that it was not the master who was ultimately responsible or that he cannot claim he built the guitar himself. There is a whole lot of luthiery that goes into the whole build. Also, based on my experience, putting a bunch of parts together does not a luthier make; it may or may not make a nice guitar depending on how skilled the builder is. In my case, I have several serious flaws but wouldn't trade the experience or the guitar for anything.

Thanks for all the comments,
Eddie

[Darryl Young]

If you go back in time, most all luthiers were trained under a "master" and their work was sold under the masters name who may or may not have done some/all the work. So when the apprentice steps our on his own and labels his own work, it's doubtful it's an entirely new design. While he may add his own tweaks most everything is based off the design he learned to build from the experienced luthier. (who likely did the same before he became the "master")

Fast forward to more modern times and there seems to have been a resurgence of luthiers starting around the 70's till today. How did they learn? Most of them started working on factory guitars. A lot of them built based on the traditional designs (Martin or maybe Gibson) and tweaked from there. Very few (if any) came up with an original design and made it successful. BTW, nearly everything imaginable has been tried by someone so it would be almost impossible to conceptualize something original.

Fast forward to the present and a lot of information is now passed through the internet, blueprints, and I would add.......kits. Kits are a way of passing on traditional, time proven designs and almost the modern equivalent of an apprenticeship (coupled with online forums it is a type of apprenticeship). If you pay attention, you learn a lot just looking at the parts in the kit (one previous poster stated he realized he could do this on his own once he had seen everything). The layout of the bracing on the top is just passing on the designs that have evolved over time. So in a way, that kit can be just a modern day equivalent of the master passing on knowledge to the apprentice (both knowledge passed on to him and some he has acquired on his own). Further training takes place on forums like this one as you go through the steps. Not all make it. Some are naturals.

When you are starting out, there are so many tools and jigs to buy/build that are specific to lutherie that it is either overwhelming.......or just too much to bite off just to complete your first build. How much do you want to invest when you don't even know for sure this is a hobby you will enjoy? I wouldn't pay $1,500 for a guitar for my daughters to learn to play on so decided to build one. Since, I've bought a high end kit, two radius dishes, a mold, two bandsaws (will likely sell one), a drum sander, a laminate trimmer, a spray gun, about to buy a larger compressor for finishing, a die grinder with adjustable base for inlaying, numerous fretting tools, built a work bench/storage cabinet combo for building, built a go-bar deck, built a Well/Karol circle cutting jig, an end wedge inlay jig, a jig for sanding the 1 1/2 deg angle in the upper bout for the fret board extension, built a jig for shaping the headstock, and made or acquired numerous cauls, flat granite plates, sanding blocks, planes, files, scrapers, bits, blades, sandpaper, etc., etc. All this, and I still can't scratch build! I need a bender.......and the bender forms for the body styles I want to build.......and molds for the body shapes I haven't built.......and a bending blanket......and slats for the bender. If this isn't enough, most folks, even woodworkers, aren't setup for, nor have the knowledge to machine small parts safely. This is a normal part of guitar building and you need to pay attention to what you are doing and think it through or you can EASILY get hurt!

I've said all this to say.......kits make a lot of sense when you are starting out. And if you enjoy it, and you have the time and funds to continue, most likely you will end up scratch building. Kits are a tool that gives you the ability to learn and be successful while spreading the cost of tool acquisition out over time.

BTW, when I'm done building my kit I will say that I built it even though the parts were pre-made. Martins are built from pre-made parts, most luthiers who pre-make parts make them based off traditional designs (like a Martin 000, or dreadnaught, etc.). I would guess most luthiers use some premade parts.....necks, bridges, fretboards, tuners, binding, etc. If I mess up the guitar by poor technique or make it look bad by my poor finish job, no one will say it's a "Hall" or a "Cierp" or a "Martin" or a "Gibson".........it's a "Young" and I own the mistakes. So if it turns out sounding nice, plays decent, and looks pretty good, why isn't it still a "Young"? The kit provider may set you up to be successful, but it's in your hands and you will make or break the build. Thankfully we have this forum to help coach us along.

[deadedith]

I actually know of at least 2 well-known professional builders who sell $6,000+ guitars where they assemble the bodies, final profile CNCd necks, glue on headplates and glue on fretboards. They are then sent out for finishing. After finishing, they are sent to a repair/setup guy who installs frets, tuners, glues on a CNCd bridge, fashions the nut and saddle and sets up the guitar per the customer's specs.

JJ, that has got to be one of the more enlightening things I have read on this Forum. It is an eye-opener.


Dave B

[JJDonohue]

I hear you, Rick. I find it tragic how a certain segment of the members of this craft rationalize this kind of stuff away so casually. I've been involved in countless debates about how much a builder should know and perform on his guitars in order to be called a professional. To me it seems like a no brainer but ethics have changed over the past few decades and folks seem to like to turn once black & white issues into shades of gray that serve to prevent judgment and accountability. Fortunately the vast majority of builders seem to be taken with respect for the history and traditions based upon improving skill, advancing the state if the art and sharing with others. I hope that that message continues and survives with so many new builders learning the craft.

On the issue of out-sourcing, I've finally achieved all in-house produced wooden components including resawn B&S. Up until recently I did my own finishing after learning Nitro Lacquer, 2 waterborne finishes and French Polished Shellac...for the past 3 years I've been using Joe White finishing which customers are starting to demand. I still buy tuners, truss rods and carbon fiber rods.

I happen to think that tone and playability are the most important and elusive characteristics of guitar building...and that applies to both kits and scratch builds.

BTW...if any of you guys are ever passing through Indiana, there is an open invitation to visit me, work in the shop and play a round of golf! I have 2 spare bedrooms and love to meet builders. That's a serious offer.

[johnnparchem]

BTW...if any of you guys are ever passing through Indiana ...

I grew up in the "The Region". Born in East Chicago.

[Darryl Young]

BTW...if any of you guys are ever passing through Indiana, there is an open invitation to visit me, work in the shop and play a round of golf! I have 2 spare bedrooms and love to meet builders. That's a serious offer.

Now that's my kind of fun!......though I don't get to play golf much currently. Too much time spent on the kids activities.......riding horses, swim meets, high school football games, choir, dance, etc.