CITES, Lacey, & US border problems for instruments/materials

[Ken Hundley]

You know, for $2-300 per instrument per instance, It would be cheaper to buy an instrument every time you travel, and leave it with whomever you visited before leaving. Performers have it especially difficult....it will be tough to gather all the documentation for the many instruments they travel with. This jus tplain sucks. I have not documented where all my wood comes from, and the suplpy of mother of pearl I bought years ago I still use. I couldn't possibly find the receipt for it, so then what? Fines? Or just give em the damn thing. Our taxes hardly at work.

[Duke of Pearl]

Here's a statement from Natalie Swango, at Luthiers Mercantile International (LMII), who imported the wood involved in the Gibson raids: “The exporter entered the correct code for his country's export according to Indian customs. I incorrectly listed Gibson as the consignee on the Lacey paperwork...the material was destined for them, but at this time LMI owns and is (was, ?) warehousing it. The broker made a mistake and listed the material as veneers, although all other paperwork correctly listed it as fingerboards (they have remedied this with an oops letter). The warehouse employee incorrectly informed the feds as to the ownership (although they bill me for the storage fees). The officers incorrectly came to the conclusion that we are smuggling wood.”

[tippie53]

all this over reaction . George Orville may not have been wrong

[Darryl Young]

I respect the intent of the law, just not all of the current implementation. I'll go further out on that particular (endangered) limb and say that all luthiers should, too. I'm really sick of the "I like nature but this goes too far" argument. That's a blindly short-sighted statement, lacking any constructive quality, putting today's profits ahead of finding long-term solutions to serious problems.

I too respect the intent of the law. Where I draw the line is the "guilty till proven innocent" impact of this law. I personnaly believe that any legislation so written is unconstitutional and violates the rights of US citizens. A seperate issue, I don't believe US citizens should be held legally accountable for other countries laws. There is no way a person could possibly know and understand all of them. If the other country approves an export, that should be the end of the legal discussion (why hold the recipient accountable that every law in the other country was met after the other country has approved the export as legal?) This law is vague, subject to interpretation, seems to put everyone at risk that owns a piece of lumber (exotic or domestic), and can't possibly be enforced fairly.

I don't believe these arguments put profits ahead of solutions to serious problems. I do believe there are serious problems that need addressed.......but the seriousness of the problem isn't an excuse for unfairness, violation of rights, or making criminals out of innocent and well intentioned citizens. I think many folks feel likewise thus the debate (sometimes heated). I'm sure everyones feelings about the role of government come into play in these discussions so it's difficult to seperate a discussion about the fairness of a law from political arguments.

A base element of our rights as US citizens is "equal protection under the law" and "equal justice" and it seems this law as written and currently enforced meet neither of these standards. What's worse is different branches of government can't agree how to interpret this law (poorly written).......and citizens asking for help from government on complying have become the targets of additional scrutiny and fined thousands of dollars.

PS I just re-read this and it comes across much stonger than I meant it.......but I don't have time to re-word it right now......so sorry about that.

[kencierp]

Without an "action plan" to correct "real" injustices, this is forum fodder. Complaining and demeaning our law enforcement wing of government and congressional leaders accomplishes nothing ---- ever! For one second does anyone really think that a "green planet" provision is going to get over turned just because we don't like it or we think it is unconstitutional! Take a gander at some of the EPA legislation -- none of it seems fair to businesses or the consumer for that matter. Those that feel strongly about this issue need to organize the documentation (if there is any) and get an advocate that is willing to take the matter to the floor of congress. Of course all are entitled to their opinions -- this is mine -- I am now done with this thread.

[Tony_in_NYC]

A major problem with the Lacey Act for an individual is that you need to be able to prove the chain of ownership in addition to proving where the wood came from and if it was obtained legally.
Lets say I bought some Brazilian Rosewood 10 years ago. I did not get any paperwork because the seller had owned the wood for 50 years. I have a problem and my guitar can be seized if I try to travel out of the country with it.
Lets look at another scenario. I inherit a dining room table made out of beautiful, quartersawn BRW. In a freakish eating accident, it gets damaged. Turning lemons into lemonade, I decide to resaw my table into guitar sets. They can never leave the country because I can not prove the wood was from my grandmother's 100 year old table.
In both cases, I can apply for permits and hope for the best, but there is not way to prove I owned the wood before the CITES and Lacey acts prevented import and export of those woods.
On top of that, we all know how difficult identifying BRW is just by looking at it. I am talking about people who see it very frequently. How can a Customs official, who rarely sees the stuff be certain he is looking at real BRW or another wood? They can't. So your guitar gets seized and now you have to prove it is not BRW but another wood. Lots of headaches.
I think if I ever decide to leave the US with a guitar, it will be made of Oak and it wont have any inlay.
These laws will never be repealed because they are designed to protect endangered species. Thus, we will have to deal with them. There is no way around it.
I feel for a guy like Chuck who makes his entire living from importing and reselling shell products. In the eyes of the US Government, he is as bad as a guy smuggling cocaine into the country if he forgets to dot an "i" or cross a "t" and that is a shame because I really like abalone!

[tippie53]

NAMM is getting involved now to help try and simplify these issues . At least there seems to be a door of communication opening so the realities of this can be discussed and hopefully resolved . If , and I have no reason to doubt what was posted that this was caused by a clerical error , it may show that officials need to be more diligent in investigations .
The cost of this fiasco is staggering . If Gibson was in fact in error than they did the job as needed.

[Darryl Young]

It's good to see NAMM responding! It appears that LMI is as involved as Gibson, maybe more so. The sad part is it seems to all stim from a simple clerical error.......and look what it is costing them. And they raided Gibson with machine guns???......for this??? Do those American employees deserve that?

Ken does have a good point.....talk is cheap and we should try working within the system to get the onerous parts of the law reworded so it can be a tool for protection as intended. I've never disagreed with the intent or spirit for which the law was created.

[tippie53]

talk to your congressman . That is what they are there for . If we all communicate with them , maybe we can solve this issue . We do need to protect the resource , that makes perfect business sense. Another area of true concern is that in many of these countries , poverty is rampant. Some poor person who may make $500 a year has a chance to make $500 on a single tree ??? Guess what will happen .
Education and financial opportunities are also needed for these areas . I am enjoying the discussion and hope others are as well .

[Duke of Pearl]

A seperate issue, I don't believe US citizens should be held legally accountable for other countries laws. There is no way a person could possibly know and understand all of them.

Compelling U.S. citizens to obey foreign laws isn’t exactly correct. The Lacey Act assumes that other entities (both foreign and domestic) know best how to manage their respective plant and animal resources, and it attempts to honor those regulations whether they be tribal, regional, state, federal, or foreign. Gibson’s ebony from India is being challenged on the basis of how our agencies interpret the laws of India, regardless of how India herself interprets them.

Additionally, in applying for and accepting most federal permits (such as the USFWS Import/Export Permit), the document specifically states that in signing you have agreed to let authorities examine at any time they wish your premises, paperwork, and inventory. So it’s also not an issue of unreasonable search and seizure.


Here's the NAMM letter to the President and Congress: http://www.namm.org/public-affairs/arti ... nts-namm-p

...and their comments submitted to APHIS about changing things: http://www.namm.org/files/Lacey%20Act%2 ... 02011).pdf and http://www.namm.org/files/NAMM%20Commen ... 02011).pdf

And here are newly announced APHIS "Special Use Codes" that can be used when applying for exemptions on pre-2008 guitars: http://www.aphis.usda.gov/plant_health/ ... -codes.pdf