Brian Burns early tonewood testing

[deadedith]

That's a good point, John.
Ideally, I would have Brian's data sheet for a particular top AND the top right in front of me. I would check one against the other looking for consistencies and in the end using my own judgment.

[David L]

Very well put John P. I also agree that making adjustments based on experiencial "feel of the wood" has more value than "all" of the experimental comparative data combined. However, even though I'm not the sharpest shovel in the shed, I am enough of a realist to understand that for the remainder of my lifetime (however long or short that may be) I will not put my hands on enough wood (don't even go there Tony) so that I would be able to make logical and tonal beneficial adjustments based on "feel of the wood". I want to make it very clear that I am only speaking for myself in this deduction!!!

David L

[kencierp]

Guitar makers are not alone -- essay from Stienway -- they make pretty good pianos!!

http://www.pianobuilders.com/soundboards.html

[deadedith]

A very interesting article, Ken. I'll have to look up the term 'bellyman" but the context makes it sound like he is 'tapping' the piano soundboard! Being a bellyman for Steinway is no doubt a respected position.

[deadedith]

From a NYT article:

Then No. K0862 was wheeled around the corner, the plate was suspended on a rope above it, and Ante Glavan went to work.

Mr. Glavan has one of the factory's most demanding jobs: bellyman. It is a job that figures in the company's storied tradition: William Steinway, the son in Steinway & Sons who was the company's first president, was a bellyman for a while in the 19th century.

Mr. Glavan brushed glue around the inner rim and pressed the sounding board into place. Then he lowered the plate and marked where he would glue the bridge. Piano technicians call this step ''taking the bearing,'' and it is crucial because it creates the path for the strings.

''On a violin,'' said Mr. Mohr, one of the manufacturing directors, ''the strings run up to the bridge and down to the neck. It's almost the same on a piano: up to the bridge and down to the plate. Since you have that upward angle, it puts a load on the soundboard. If the angle is too much, it could cause the soundboard to be choked and not free to vibrate. So half a millimeter matters.''

Mr. Glavan stretched what looked like a handful of silver shoestrings over the bridge, where the strings will eventually go. He did not bother with a ruler. ''I know how to do this without the tool,'' he said. ''I'm here too many years.''

He tapped. He planed. He hammered. He glued. He checked that the notches he had cut without measuring were the right depth. And then he pounded the bridge with his fist. ''This,'' he said as the echo reverberated, ''is good sound.''

[johnnparchem]

Ken and Dave those were good articles. Interesting enough there was an article I think in Discovery on sexing chickens. No one can really describe how to do it. People learn by spending weeks looking at bottoms of chicks taking a guess, and then told if they are right or wrong. The people who can do it with 98-99% accuracy cannot describe the differences they see. They just know.


When I was at the GAL this year one of the sessions had a phenomenal classical guitarist play the same bit on whatever classical guitar was brought to the stage. The guitars were all played without identifying the maker until after it was played. As luck would have it there were two kasha braced guitars that were played. Both of the guitars looked very well made. For those who do not follow classical guitar design, Kasha was the scientist type that analyzed the guitar and came up with a revolutionary bracing design that would change the way guitars would be made. One of the Kasha guitars played turned out to be an old Richard Schneider built guitar (Kasha lutherie experienced partner). It sounded really good, not the best, but in the top few. Now Richard Schneider was a very experienced luthier before he ever made a kasha braced guitar. The other guitar was more recently built and it was not a top sounding guitar. I not quite sure what the problem was with the way it sounds but it did not sound like a guitar Segovia would play. (my definition of classical guitar sound)
Also play in that session was a brand new, strung up the week before, Jeffery Elliott guitar, wow! The whole room lit up with sound, you could see the guitarist moving into the instrument, playing past the point he should have stopped. Now Jeffery Elliot makes guitars on the Torres/Hauser tradition.
Ultimately the Kasha design lost it legitimacy, probably because it was oversold and wrongly applied to steel string guitars. In any case Darwinism won out.
Finally to the point I want to make. Richard Schneider was a good Luthier, I think that he was able to take the bracing scheme and muck with it until he was happy with the way the top felt and acted. His guitars ended sounding good despite the bracing scheme. Others following the design patterns ended up with mediocre to OK sounding instruments but never really surpassing the traditional design. Interesting enough in the session there were a lot of first or second guitars where the builder followed the 1937 Hauser plans. A few of them sounded really good. The rest sound OK. None sounded bad.

[deadedith]

Darwinian Luthery!! You have got to love that phrase :-)

Speaking of classical guitar, my personal favorite player is Graham Anthony Devine, particularly playing the music of Leo Brouwer. Best in good headsets or through great speakers; I literally dropped my jaws on the ground and did not know it for the duration of the album! :-)

Here is a youtube vid - a thoughtful piece, no fireworks, but the full album has plenty of each.
http://youtu.be/mI9I_mwYRUI

and on the 10 string which I totally lust for:
http://youtu.be/PQRst2khRPs

[johnnparchem]

I will listen to his work. Leo Brouwer is one of my favorite composers. I play the first couple sets of his simple studies but after that they do not seem so simple. I also like to play Berceuse. A lot of his music is to hard for me to play. I like him a lot better when people like Graham Anthony Devine is playing his music.

Thanks for the link I will look up his album.

[deadedith]

John - I have volume 3, there are a total of 4 I believe.

[Herman]

Above I wrote that I thought Somogyi measured braces with different graindirections.
Well I looked it up and yes, it was Somogyi.
In his book The Responsive Guitar he writes in chapter 11 that he tested the deflection of several braces with different graindirections.

Quote: "Measured stiffness in dense spruces seems independent of graindirection........
Measured stiffness in medium-weight spruces seems affected by grainorientation. Vertical grain wood seems the less stiff, contrary to to the popular belief..........
Grain orientation is a factor in less dense woods ...Here antivertical grain has about 10% greater stiffness than vertical grain, and the more vertical the grain in the brace sample the less stiff it got...."

What it means, I don't know. You tell me.
Lutherie leans for a great deal on traditional ideas. This can be good, but only following old dogma's is a burdon if you want to make progress IMO.
Some of us rely on the the thought that the good old hands and eyes are superior, but remember that checking out a piece of wood with our hands is only a different kind but still a measurement.

Herman