Runningdog wrote:Is it possible that the "reset" was actually slipping the back? There's no reason to re-glue the headblock and upper bout linings in a normal, steam-the-dovetail-apart reset. But it looks to me like that's what was done. Also, it's cheaper to do a quick and dirty slip rather than steaming and refitting the dovetail. If so, probably the neck was never removed and you're dealing with the factory dovetail fitting.
Rick,
Can you explain what you mean by "slipping the back?"
I think it means they moved the neck block slightly to achieve a similar result as a reset, but I can not imagine how this would be done.
Thanks in advance,
Runningdog wrote:Is it possible that the "reset" was actually slipping the back? There's no reason to re-glue the headblock and upper bout linings in a normal, steam-the-dovetail-apart reset. But it looks to me like that's what was done. Also, it's cheaper to do a quick and dirty slip rather than steaming and refitting the dovetail. If so, probably the neck was never removed and you're dealing with the factory dovetail fitting.
Rick,
Can you explain what you mean by "slipping the back?"
I think it means they moved the neck block slightly to achieve a similar result as a reset, but I can not imagine how this would be done.
Thanks in advance,
Tony
I've not done one Tony but I think how it is done is like this- the back is separated from the sides around to about the shoulders, then the side is pulled in slightly to correct the neck angle (this moves the neck block back towards the heel), the back is re-glued and the exposed overhang on the back is flush trimmed. Finally the binding is fix as needed. I think that's what Rick is saying and why you can see the glue coming out from the kerfing around to the shoulder. Makes sense to me. I've heard of neck resets being done that way and in fact in years past before the dovetail steam method was known many were done that way. At least that is my understanding.
Hmmm. That's very educational. Is planing top of the bridge part of the equation to setting the correct neck angle though?
FWIW it sounds like almost as much work as just steaming out the dovetail joint anyway, though I should add that at the time of the repair the binding had pulled away to reveal that the back was pulling away from the sides:
Rick and Tim,
Thanks for that info. It seems like a lot of work to avoid a true neck reset, but I suppose in some cases it is the only option. It would explain all of the glue on the inside as well.
Neil, the binding pulling away seems like a clue to the neck slip being done but what do I know? I just learned about that procedure two minutes ago!! LOL
In my mind, removing the bridge to shave it down makes little sense from the standpoint that the neck was intended to be removable, the bridge was intended to stay put. Removing the bridge can compromise the integrity of the soundboard because you can accidentally remove wood from the top. Besides, it was meant to stay put and the neck is a removable piece! I saw a picture of a guitar where the owner, who didnt know any better mind you, continued to shave the saddle down to keep the action nice. When there was no saddle left, he filed slots into the bridge so the string no longer came up and out of the pin hole, it basically went straight through the bridge to the nut. There must have been some issue with the bridge lifting as well because they drilled into the top through the bridge and inserted carriage bolts through the bridge, the top, and one of the legs of the X-brace to hold the bridge on!!
That is not how you repair a bridge! I am learning stuff because I didnt even need to ask anyone if that was an acceptable repair! LOL
Well, the bridge was shaved at the time of the repair back in 2003. Naturally he set it up to have low action but later on I bought a bone saddle with the intention of raising it and yes, it leaned forward. I think it may have also been instrumental in the bridge cracking across all 6 pin holes when I overtightened a JLD Bridge Doctor.
Like I said, this is getting complicated - but at least I'm learning a LOT in the process. I'm at the point in my first build where I'm having trouble comprehending neck angle and how to shape my neck block accordingly.
You will definitely learn a lot from doing repairs!
I hope the "surgeon" who operated on your lawsuit guitar was covered by some hefty malpractice insurance! The dude is a quack!
nkwak wrote:Well, the bridge was shaved at the time of the repair back in 2003. Naturally he set it up to have low action but later on I bought a bone saddle with the intention of raising it and yes, it leaned forward. I think it may have also been instrumental in the bridge cracking across all 6 pin holes when I overtightened a JLD Bridge Doctor.
Like I said, this is getting complicated - but at least I'm learning a LOT in the process. I'm at the point in my first build where I'm having trouble comprehending neck angle and how to shape my neck block accordingly.
I'm pretty sure I saw an excellent diagram on Ken Cierp site showing the neck angle relationship, it's really not too complicated once you get into it. Bottom line is really the two angles need to add to 180 degrees or problems start to arise. Now there is other geometry involve because of dome effect of the top (most "flat tops" are not truly flat). John H has some good videos to splain that as well. Take advantage.
Is planing top of the bridge part of the equation to setting the correct neck angle though?
I'll back off a little on this so I don't get into too much trouble. There are bridges with more than adequate depth so shaving a bit off won't cause problems. But it's still a makeshift solution to the larger problem. Fix the real issue, do it right, and the bridge can remain intact and as designed.
Rick, that's my philosophy too. Worked on one the other day that was real close to needing a reset and was still under warranty as it was only 3 years old. Had him call factory and got the following response from the tech:
"A neck reset on a [company name deleted] is very uncommon. We leave a lot of extra space on the bridge from the factory. Before a neck re-set I would have the bridge shaved down first. If shaving the bridge does not correct anything please contact us again. We usually don’t go any lower than 5/64ths for string height either."
Wasn't expecting a factory rep to answer that way. But I had told the owner before contacting the factory that there was quite a bit of room on the bridge to lower it but I didn't like to go that route for the same reasons you stated above.
Bless you repair guys! Just was always too nerve racking for me -- being responsible someones precious instrument in not my thing. BTW I have to admit I did the neck block - back slip repair (actually I called it a "trick") on two different Gibson Classicals. Since they both had dovetails and not Spanish heels I am guilty of taking the easier route.
Back on point with a question -- I am hearing more of the "bridge shaving" repair and one of the elements is to also re-cut the saddle slot all the way down to the sound board -- Any comments?
