Titebond

[Ben-Had]

Damn Jim, you're a titebond guru:)

[Jim_H]

Just trying to pay it forward and provide some value here.

The info I provided is easily found on the Titebond website. I was curious one day when I picked up a rather old bottle of glue, and I wondered if it was still good (it wasn't :p), so I went searching the web...

[Jim_H]

I saw this post over at the OLF and thought of this thread. Hugh Evans is the lead product tester for Titebond and also happens to build guitars. He occasionally responds to questions over there.

In this case, he was responding to a question about 'dilution', but his other info is interesting as well. I have a bottle of extend that is too thick to use for anything as is. I might try diluting it a bit and using it.

(emphasis mine)

I'll let you hear it straight from the horse: Dilution with water is fine, and will dramatically decrease viscosity. A 5% and 10% addition of water will reduce viscosity by 50% and 75% respectively. Any strength loss in this range can be considered negligible. Another excellent use for dilution is mixing up sizing, which is typically a 1:1 or 2:1 water:adhesive mixture. Applying this mixture to end grain (ex. scarf joints) a few minutes prior to full strength adhesive can result in 20%+ increases in bond strength.

I also second Carey's input regarding Titebond Extend... Which happens to be my personal favorite all around PVA for guitars because of its longer assembly time, superior thermal and creep resistance, not to mention it steams apart nicely. Most of the big guys use a closely related product from our industrial line.

I agree with Zlurgh's assessment as well. Pushing beyond 5% dilution you can start to see some strength loss. It doesn't really drive the solids content critically low, but it's worth being aware of. I have recommended going that far for cracked headstocks simply because it is more likely to increase bond surface area and squeeze out more effectively. However, if we're talking about setting a neck there's usually not a great case for dilution in the first place.

[tippie53]

While I do use tite bond I am using more fish and hot hide glue lately , this is not to imply that one is better than the other. I will say that Fish and Hot Hide are easier to reglue them selves.
For wood rosettes I stopped using any water based glue and opted for Duco cement. There is no water so there are no issues of infusion of water to a top. It also holds very well and lets face it , it is a fairly stress free joint.
Tite bond is a proven glue and has many uses. Joint integrity is my main concern so take the time to make your joint ,as clean and precise as you can.

[Jim_H]

I've recently acquired a bottle of fish glue and am going to give it a try when I glue the bridge on the Dread I'm building. I've experimented with it on scrap. It's definite got different working properties than I'm used to.

I'm thinking about giving the slightly thinned Titebond Extend a try next time I'm doing bindings.

[Darryl Young]

Did I understand correctly that the Titebond glue most mfgs use is an industrial version of their glue but it's more similar to Titebond Original Extend than to Titebond Original? Is he saying that Extend has better creep resistance than Original?

[Darryl Young]

BTW, my first guitar was built almost exclusively with Fish glue. I like it. I used epoxy for the fretboard and CA here or there on non-structural stuff.......but all bracing, lining, box assembly, bridge, headstock veneer, etc. was assembled with Fish glue. It is nice that you can re-heat and clamp tight without needing to remove old glue that may hold a joint apart (and you might get lucky and not even need to add glue if enough is already in the joint). Mainly, I like it's creep resistance.

[Jim_H]

Darryl,

I think that Franklin makes a lot of different industrial grade adhesives. It sounds like at least some of them are based on the "Extend" product, but I think that they have other properties, like heat activation, etc...

His mention of improved creep resistance intrigues me. I wish he had substantiated that more. I think I already knew about the other stuff...

[Jim_H]

This is kinda redundant to what I Posted about this earlier, but I thought I'd post this new quote from Hugh Evans from over at the OLF.

He states with no uncertain terms that Titebond Extend has superior heat and creep resistance, and is the ideal glue for gluing a bridge. The one caveat is, that if it ever has to be removed, expect some foul language from the repair tech. I've never tried to remove Titebond Extend with heat or de-glue goo. I have a bottle that I'm going to do some experimenting with this weekend (if I don't get distracted).

Here is the quote

Titebond Extend is perfect for bridges, and has superior heat and creep resistance in comparison with Titebond Original (although either one will work.) Most of the bases have been covered already in this thread, but I feel like throwing in some extra depth for anyone who's curious.

Scoring or otherwise roughing up a bonding surface is unnecessary and if anything detrimental to bond strength, when water based wood glues are to be used. PVA based adhesives such as Titebond Original/Extend/II/III, etc. rely on proximity between bonding surfaces to achieve maximum strength. While scoring will increase the effective surface area, it also increases the average glueline thickness... and that leads to all kinds of other problems. The description of a glueline exceeding 0.005" as being too thick makes me smile, and it is entirely accurate. I wish I had exact figures on strength loss as a function of thickness, but that study is considered academic since we know that thinner lines are stronger.

Here is the thread. I followed up with a question about repairability if anyone wants to follow along
http://www.luthiersforum.com/forum/view ... 88#p459788

[tippie53]

In all the years that I have been doing this . I have not seen a lot of creep. I do think there are mitigating circumstances to this. contaminated glue , poor joint or abuse. Tite bond extend may indeed glue on a bridge but we also need to look down the road to repairs. What are the dampening qualities of this glue ?
There are better glues , Hot Hide Glue Fish Glue , LMI white . This is a choice that the builder has to make . It is an interesting discussion for sure . Then we can also look at dampening effects. CF Martin and Penn State have been working together to see if there is a way to quantify different glues and the tonal inferences of these glues.
The best advice I was given was , Joint integrity is first. A bad joint is a bad joint. Tite bond is a more forgiving glue than Hot Hide glue , Fish glue has the advantage of being a cold glue but heat can make this very thin for penetrating cracks.
There is no one perfect glue bit Hot Hide glue is a very good choice . It has been proved . Tite bond is also a good glue . The better the joinery the better the chance of success .
Toothing was a technique used to help with a mechanical bond. The more I do this the more I go to the Hot Hide glue and Fish glue. Still The PVA glues can still be very useful.