Does the grade of a top affect the sound of the guitar?

[Guitar Hack]

I was wondering if the grade of a guitar affects the sound. Assuming AAA, AA and A as grades. Would the A sound as good as the AAA? I realized there may be differences in the number of grains per inch but does that really make that much difference?

Is Master Grade a function of snob appeal or does it actually sound better?

[Darryl Young]

There is no set standard on grading tops.......so one mfgs AAA maybe another mfgs AA. With that in mind it's difficult to make an absolute statement about how the grade affects tone. I would say in general (and there are exceptions) the grade of tops usually is about asthetics......the color, lines per inch, etc. Many tops sound great that have course grain......and it's obvious the color doesn't affect tone.

My opinion is stiffness (both along and across the grain), density, grain orientation and runout are the primary selection criteria. I don't know of a mfg that provides info on stiffness.......or even density (which would be easier to measure). I guess that's why most experienced builders prefer to handle a top in person before purchasing. Some have developed a relationship with a seller they trust has learned what they prefer.

If you are uncertain, you can always seek advice from John Hall. He has a tops for sale and he has the experince to help you pick a good one.

[tippie53]

The grading can be very subjective. Often wider grained wood is stiffer than tight grained product. The key is to find ascetically pleasing wood. What you do want to look for is run out and defects that cannot be readily seen , IE pitch pockets and wind break.
Find a good supplier that you can trust. Most woods on ebay are questionable. I do know our own RC Tonewoods will sell on Ebay as do I. Zootman and Tippie53 , will have good product that is reliable . You will earn fast who it selling wood and who is selling guitar wood

[JJDonohue]

I have this little ritual I perform each Friday following Thanksgiving. I travel to Buffalo and stay with The Zootman and his wonderful family for a few days.

Aside from the pleasantries of friendship and camaraderie, I'm there to select a good portion of my annual wood replacement. I select my tops strictly by feel and sound. I actually go through Bob's shelves of top wood blindfolded and scratch, tap and bend each top in his inventory. Those that meet my criteria I put aside and reject the rest. When the blindfold comes off I'm always amazed at how many perfect (Grade 4-5?) tops I rejected and how many cosmetically challenged (Grade 2-3?) tops I selected. So far, I've proved the method featured in some great sounding guitars. Nonetheless, I always like to keep the few stiff but cosmetically perfect tops for customers who insist on pure tight-grained tops that are homogeneous in color and grain pattern. I call them Wonderbread tops and they're rare.

The lesson I've learned over the years is...don't be afraid to use streaked or wide-grained tops. I and a lot of others are convinced that there's no correlation between grain count and stiffness and tone. To me, each top is unique in itself and the cosmetic imperfections only add to each top's personality and demeanor...sorta like luthiers!

[Guitar Hack]

The reason I was asking is I was on Old World Tonewoods and bought a "b" grade top from them for "not a lot of money" I took a chance. It's carpathian spruce. I got the top and it had a couple knots on it but they were outside the area where the guitar would be cut out. It was rather thick so I have sanded it down almost to the point I want it and you know it really looks good. The grain spacing reminds me of an adirondack spruce top I got from John.

I don't know much about tap tone etc. yet. I intend to incorporate the top into guitar kit I bought on e-bay that they guy claimed was one of two he got at an estate sale.

Anyway all in all I think I got a good deal with this 'second' piece of wood. When I'm finished it will look like a AA or AAA piece of wood. It has no runout and the grain is perfectly perpendicular.

I had my suspicions that most of the tops with close grains were for looks rather than for sound.

I'm curious how this top will perform when played.

[JJDonohue]

Hack...I think this is the way most of us have learned. Your "2nd" Carpathian top may well be a howler or something less once your guitar is completed. Try it for yourself and see what happens. The only thing I would recommend is to take lots of notes on your observations and perceptions. When you finish more than a few guitars and look back at your notes you will eventually develop a correlation in some areas of a top's pre-braced condition. I try to get them sanded to .140" and do all of my comparative cross-grain stiffness evaluations at a common thickness. It also happens to be the same thickness I like to install rosettes.

There are some tops with tight grain that are quite stiff and some that are quite floppy. Conversely, the same goes for wide-grained tops. After feeling, tapping, scratching and bending a good number of tops, you'll develop a good perception. I believe it takes time and a discipline of purpose that the better builders have acquired. I think it's time worth spending in our pursuit of self-improvement.

Does anyone here actually quantify the stiffness of their tops?

[kencierp]

Personally I don’t believe there is much magic involved in determining if a top is suitable or not – the caveat is, as far as, I am concerned, this cannot be done until the halves are joined and the sound-board is thinned. To test for stiffness I hold the joined top on the edge (they are about 16” wide) and look to see how much they flex across grain --- I do this as the thinning processes 1” or so deflection seems to be just fine. Also, tapping for resonance is straightforward – if the rap at the bridge location is a dull thud there may be a problem (sounds like cardboard) – but more than likely you’ll hear a crisp tone that will decay as opposed to the thud mentioned above. I have also rejected tops after the sound-hole was cut.

[Guitar Hack]

I'm also thinking that it would be a good idea to maybe use a 4 piece back or top in an effort to reduce costs. Seems to me that should perform just fine. It seems like its probably just a cosmetic issue more than anything else.

Might be a good idea to glue some good tap tone wood to some dud tap tone wood and see if this makes a difference. Possibly even mix species of Spruce. Otherwise put the scraps together and make a new top. No reason that wouldn't sell to the intro market though the work is the same or slightly more. The one thing I remember from my days in Shop in high school is that the glued joint is stronger than the wood.

[naccoachbob]

I'm also thinking that it would be a good idea to maybe use a 4 piece back or top in an effort to reduce costs. Seems to me that should perform just fine. It seems like its probably just a cosmetic issue more than anything else.

Your idea there gave me an idea. So many people talk about how wonderful Brazilian Rosewood is, but the quality today, only in my amateurish humble opinion, doesn't seem so good. I think I heard where a lot of "stump wood" is being used. At least the impression I'm getting is that the quality is much lower than in old days.
However, if you took 4 pieces of Brazilian for a back and used a couple of inlays, it might look pretty good and have that sound that is so respected. This doesn't help as far as finding matching sides, which could be problematic. Unless you could do 2 pieces for each side.
I think I'm falling way outside the box on this one though.
Bob

[tippie53]

We all develop our own technique for selecting a top. I don't use tap toning I use a deflection test. This accurately puts a number on the tops strength and how it moves. Still it is just my way . You must find what works for you. In early days I used tapping and so many of my early ideas were just the , beginners ideas . As you gain experience and learn more about the science and engineering of a guitar , you will see where you will also change your ideas and conceptions. As I often say , there are many ways to do this . Find what works for you .
Grading a top is so subjective , and often 1 guys AAA is another mans A . Do your homework and have fun.