Repair & Finish 40 year old project

Even if it ain't broke you can still fix it.
PSmill
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:23 pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Repair & Finish 40 year old project

Post by PSmill »

Ok thanks. I think the twist results in a deviation of only about 1/32" from true, so I will true it using sanding blocks before radiusing. I determined the scale length to be 650mm and the bridge was positioned (based on the tape job) with about 5mm of compensation, which according to all my sources is about 1.5-2mm too long, so I plan to fix the bridge position 2mm forward from that. It also caught my eye that the wood directly under then nut is about 9/16" thick, this is a 1/16" or so thinner than what I measure from a comparable blueprint which shows 5/8" of thickness in the neck below the nut. I am wondering if that is concerning?

Finally, I am leaning towards cutting off the peghead (above the nut slot towards the peghead end, leaving the nut slot intact) and gluing on a new piece, and am open to suggestions on how to do that tricky clamp job, and also if it needs to be reinforced as it will be an end grain joint (at say a 60 deg. angle but with way less surface area than a normal scarf joint). I could dry clamp it and drill some micro dowels through to keep it from shifting during the glue up. And I could embed and epoxy a small section of carbon rod across the scarf. Thoughts?

Thanks!
Diane Kauffmds
Posts: 3246
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:13 pm

Re: Repair & Finish 40 year old project

Post by Diane Kauffmds »

I'll look though my records. I photograph everything I do.

In the meantime, have you given thought about just replacing that neck? You're going to have to match the wood. Even wood of the same species will probably be a different color. This is already installed, right? The neck really needs to be taken off first, before attempting to cut the headstock off. It can be done in place, but it's a lot harder to do.

It's definitely a viable way of fixing it. I suggested it as one alternative. But your best course of action now is to simply replace the whole neck, especially since you're replacing, rather than repositioning, the headstock.

In the meantime, I'll look for the photos of gluing up the headstock. I usually do this before shaping the neck/headstock, so doing yours will be more of a challenge.
Diane Kauffmann
Country Roads Guitars
countryroadsguitars@gmail.com
Diane Kauffmds
Posts: 3246
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:13 pm

Re: Repair & Finish 40 year old project

Post by Diane Kauffmds »

I've used Rick Penta's necks in the past. You can contact him and he'll work with you on almost any aspect. I highly recommend his necks. He's also fast on shipping.

https://www.ebay.com/str/pentaguitarworks
Diane Kauffmann
Country Roads Guitars
countryroadsguitars@gmail.com
PSmill
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:23 pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Repair & Finish 40 year old project

Post by PSmill »

Hi we are making progress on this, mostly I am showing the owner how to things and then he does the work. We have agreed to stick with the original build as much as possible so I reconstructed the peghead with ears and the fretboard was trued to the plane of the top. Frets are in and bridge glued in, tuners installed, it looks promising. The fretboard is flat from 1-10 then starts to drop off towards the soundhole

We levelled the frets and despite a thorough level several of them still show as being high using a rocker. Using feelers it seems they are in the range of 0.003” high. I am thinking to string it up and see how the setup goes, with the option to redo the levelling if we can’t get a decent action.

Questions….I’m not clear how, after levelling, there can still be numerous high spots? And recognizing it will limit how low the action can be, will it be ok to hav high spots a few thousands of an inch? Will I still be able to get at least a decent playable action?

There is no truss rod so hoping the string pull gives a healthy relief. Thanks!
Diane Kauffmds
Posts: 3246
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:13 pm

Re: Repair & Finish 40 year old project

Post by Diane Kauffmds »

PSmill wrote: Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:46 pm Hi we are making progress on this, mostly I am showing the owner how to things and then he does the work. We have agreed to stick with the original build as much as possible so I reconstructed the peghead with ears and the fretboard was trued to the plane of the top. Frets are in and bridge glued in, tuners installed, it looks promising. The fretboard is flat from 1-10 then starts to drop off towards the soundhole

We levelled the frets and despite a thorough level several of them still show as being high using a rocker. Using feelers it seems they are in the range of 0.003” high. I am thinking to string it up and see how the setup goes, with the option to redo the levelling if we can’t get a decent action.

Questions….I’m not clear how, after levelling, there can still be numerous high spots? And recognizing it will limit how low the action can be, will it be ok to hav high spots a few thousands of an inch? Will I still be able to get at least a decent playable action?

There is no truss rod so hoping the string pull gives a healthy relief. Thanks!
There shouldn't be high spots like that. Your problem is that the fretboard isn't level. As much as I hate to tell you this, I'd remove the frets and level again. This happened to a "friend" of mine...lol

This is why I'm fanatical about leveling. You'll chase your tail if you don't go backwards a bit, and you'll be haunted by buzzing. I level after radiusing. I level again after inlays. I level always after the neck and fretboard are installed.

Take the frets out, chalk that puppy, and level until the chalk is gone. Chalk again and double check; the chalk should disappear immediately.

When you level, sand from ONE direction only. it's really important not to sand back and forth. Sanding back and forth creates dips.

I'm sure this is you're problem. You'll be surprised at how nicely it'll fret, but more importantly, you'll be able to adjust your action really low if you desire. At any rate, it'll improve the playability.
Diane Kauffmann
Country Roads Guitars
countryroadsguitars@gmail.com
PSmill
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:23 pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Repair & Finish 40 year old project

Post by PSmill »

This is why I was enquiring on this…. I do follow your fretboard levelling method and did this time as well, it was flat from 1-10 then starts to fall away. I confirmed with a notched straight edge after it was fretted as wel, it still looked really good! So not sure what make of it…

Hi did notice my fret saw slid through the kerfs slightly easier than I am used to, the original build must have used a saw with a kerf a hair wider. The frets all seemed to press in well. And hammer in we’ll over the body, but perhaps the had less bite than usual and shifted slightly?
Diane Kauffmds
Posts: 3246
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:13 pm

Re: Repair & Finish 40 year old project

Post by Diane Kauffmds »

So many things can happen. But, I know for a fact that if any fret isn't tight, and you level, it'll bounce up and down, causing a "false level". I'll bet that's your problem... visually check all of your frets by pushing on them. Watch to see if one moves. If it does, I'd just replace it, make sure it's tight, and level it to the others.

As far as fall-off, that's not a bad thing and it won't cause a buzz. A hump will, but not fall-off.
Diane Kauffmann
Country Roads Guitars
countryroadsguitars@gmail.com
PSmill
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:23 pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Repair & Finish 40 year old project

Post by PSmill »

I had a look....when we installed them we checked for gaps under the crown using a 0.004" feeler (does anyone else have a standard for testing this?), and there were a couple of small areas where that would fit it, but I'd say overall the frets were seated pretty well (I used a fret press from guitarbuilderonline, also got a bendernator, really great!). Anyways, I just checked them again and I don't see springy frets, the sideview of the tangs looks ok, and the feeler test also seems good. You may be right, the frets could have risen by an almost imperceptible amount. I think we will finish the nut, string it up with mediums and see what the relief does (it does not have a truss rod), and see what happens with the set up. Worst case, we level frets 1-10 again. Worst worst pull the frets and find some wire with a slightly wider barb! And perhaps CA them all in place. Thanks for the ideas!
PSmill
Posts: 111
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2018 12:23 pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada

Re: Repair & Finish 40 year old project

Post by PSmill »

Making good progress on this. Got it strung up, and set up to a medium action with no buzzing. The strings pulled neck from flat to 0.004" relief (there is no truss rod). It sounds pretty good after 40 years in the case! A bit tinny perhaps, maybe due to the saddle issue below. It seems things worked out ok, while sticking to the original build and design, the peghead reconstruction is good (after 2 tries), the fretboard trued, radiused and levelled, frets good, intonation good. The owner didn't want to try and perfect the finish, so there is some patchy coloration on the FB and the bleaching from the bridge tape is still there (even after a pretty aggressive sanding). I put on a few coats of TruOil, I will give him the bottle if he wants to do a few more coats to even out the gloss on the spruce.

The last issue is that the saddle is leaning forward. It's a very thin saddle and the slot was not very deep, which I recognized earlier but thought I'd leave it and see what happened. It seems stable but I know it needs to be fixed.

Question - Could angling the bottom of the saddle to get it to lean a few degrees towards the pins help? or am I best to either rout it a few mm deeper, or rout a new slope both wider and deeper and make a new saddle? I see a few jigs for this only, but if anyone has the best design?

Thanks
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phavriluk
Posts: 554
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:49 pm

Re: Repair & Finish 40 year old project

Post by phavriluk »

Saddle fits the slot fine, my suggestion is to leave it alone.
peter havriluk
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