Yamaki 331s top replacement?

Stray Feathers
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Yamaki 331s top replacement?

Post by Stray Feathers »

In the 1960s I was given a Gibson J45 as a sort of honorarium for running a community coffee house. I never really liked it, and when the time came to help pay for an engagement ring I sold the Gibson. With a little money left over I bought this Yamaki 331s, which I liked a lot, and played for years. (Interesting that it has a zero fret). In my next life, I was given a Larrivée, and the Yamaki did not get played much. One of my sons asked for guitar advice for his then-girlfriend's parents, who wanted to buy her a guitar on a limited budget. I offered to sell them the Yamaki as a better value, and they were happy. Over the years the cedar-top Yamaki (still owned by my son's now wife) has developed a pronounced belly dip, and consequent top cracks. I decided to bring it home to see if I could repair it, before the damage got worse. So while the guitar is not an icon, it has some family history.

The x-brace is way too light, and one leg has come unglued. There are cracks along the bass side of the lower bout, under the pickguard (near where the x-brace has come unglued), and also extending from the treble side of the fretboard into the soundhole. When I owned it, I confess I also dropped a piece of firewood on it, which left a hole in the upper bout. I have researched it, and considered a Bridge Doctor repair, plus reglued cracks with cleats behind etc. But I am also wondering about replacing the top, which overall seems very fragile. I have never tried that but think I could do it. The adjustable bridge is sound, but I think I would replace it. But what are the pros and cons? This is not a pre-war Martin, but as another son said, it has a little of the Willie Nelson appeal. But I have some nice cedar for a top, or maybe a spruce top would sound better? New bracing would help. If I rout off the top binding, should I also rout off the back binding so I can replace both to match? How do you finish a new top and blend it into an existing finish, which I am pretty sure is not lacquer? Does anyone have any experience with these guitars? I could blunder through this but I would be grateful for any insights - Bruce W.
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BEJ
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Re: Yamaki 331s top replacement?

Post by BEJ »

Looks like a good project, not much help here. I don't think "Trigger" has much to worry about being displaced as the "OMG you can still play that thing," top spot.

Bruce,
Diane Kauffmds
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Re: Yamaki 331s top replacement?

Post by Diane Kauffmds »

Your biggest decision is whether to stick with the cedar, or go spruce. If you change materials, the voice will change tremendously. So, first I'd decide how much you like the sound of this guitar vs the sound of a spruce topped guitar. Go from there. If you prefer spruce, the solution is academic.

I would build a new top, unless you simply want to gain repair experience. This is an excellent guitar for learning repair techniques for a variety of problems. Repairing may take more time and effort than replacement.

Since I'm not the greatest fan of cedar, I'd replace the top with spruce, because I prefer the sound. But, that's me. Cedar is more delicate; if you cross your eyes at it, it'll dent.

If you decide to repair, before buying the bridge doctor, hydrate that guitar in a plastic bag with a perforated plastic container containing a wet sponge. It'll bring that dip up a bit. Honestly, I wouldn't worry too much about the dip. After hydrating, if the dip is still pronounced, I can suggest alternatives to investing in the bridge doctor.

If you replace the top binding, I would also replace the back if it's really noticeable. You can pull binding off by heating with a hairdryer, heat gun, or routing. If you rout, tape the sides so the bearing doesn't leave a mark.

I use a heat gun to heat the edge, to remove a top. Tops/backs come off very easily. Just remove the binding and aim heat on the glued kerfing.

As far as finish, just choose your preference if youre replacing the top. If you repair, test a small area with alcohol on a q-tip. If it gets sticky, it's lacquer. If no reaction, it's polyurethane. You can lightly scuff old poly to add new.
Diane Kauffmann
Country Roads Guitars
countryroadsguitars@gmail.com
tippie53
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Re: Yamaki 331s top replacement?

Post by tippie53 »

looking at the photos I see the rosette is starting to push into the sound hole. So check that neck block is secure.
Not a fan of cedar on steel strings but this is your guitar. Top sink is typical of the age but why not just fix the issues if you like the sound.
IF the top is cracked along the fretboard like I think it is epoxy and a small reinforcement will help and then address the loose braces.
John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
president of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com
Stray Feathers
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Re: Yamaki 331s top replacement?

Post by Stray Feathers »

Thanks for your quick and very helpful replies. I have done some more digging and found a few things I had previously missed. In one discussion a writer said he believed that the early 70s Yamakis (this one is dated May 1971) had top braces that were 9mm x 7.5 mm (less than 3/8 x 5/16 "; later models were beefier) so I wonder if the structural problems can only continue? Not seeing any bolts to indicate a mortise-and-tenon neck joint, I assumed it would be a dovetail, but once again this writer said the early models were dowel-jointed (later models dovetailed). This was corroborated by a luthier who had worked on a Yamaki 12-string. He said he would "saw the neck off" which did not appeal to me - I could not find information on the outcome. But I do recall some of Diane's experiences with bizarre neck joints.

So I am still mulling; sounds like repairs may be possible from the experience of others, and the belly may not be a huge problem. But John's hint about the neck block being suspect would be easier to inspect and repair with the top off. If I did replace the top I am wondering about replacing the fretboard (which is rosewood, pretty grimy). Or, as a luthier friend is doing on a different Yamaki model, cut the fretboard at the 14th fret, and glue it back on the new top later. I have no experience with this, and wondered if it might be better to cut it at say the 11th fret, so when glued back on, the piece would span the neck-to-body joint.
I have two guitars and two ukes to buff and set up so I still have time to think about this . . .

Bruce W.
Diane Kauffmds
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Re: Yamaki 331s top replacement?

Post by Diane Kauffmds »

Yes, I've had some real gems! I had one with dowels. I'll try to find which one it was and ill look at my notes. I did not cut it off; I would never do that.

Bruce, you'll probably need to remove some of the fretboard, certainly if you replace the top. With the possibility of a weird joint, I'd do it. What I do is remove only part of the board from fret 9 on down. I remove the fret from fret 9, then very carefully cut through the slot. Be careful not to cut into the neck. Then heat the lower half. As it loosens, use a cake icing spatula to get under the fb. Gradually work it loose until it comes off.

It's much easier to line up and reglue the cut board, because part of it remains on. But this way you'll see what you have. You can work the dowel neck off using steam and patience.
Diane Kauffmann
Country Roads Guitars
countryroadsguitars@gmail.com
Stray Feathers
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Re: Yamaki 331s top replacement?

Post by Stray Feathers »

Diane, thanks for reassuring me that cutting the fretboard (and where) will work. With the bracing so thin, and a possible glue failure at the neck block, I am more inclined to remove the top just for access, and decide then if it can be salvaged. The fretboard is not bound which simplifies things. Some of the Yamaki models with "Y" in the designation (e.g AY 331s) have non-adjustable rosewood bridges, so I could put one of those on a new top, if everything aligns correctly. Bruce W.
tippie53
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Re: Yamaki 331s top replacement?

Post by tippie53 »

to add to Dianes advice
A once you pop off the fretboard I cut at least 2 frets up.
that will tell you a lot.
B if you don't see a joint ( doweled ) you may also assume the heel may be glued also
so drill 2 holes one on each side down the side.

Lastly with the neck off you may want to convert this to a bolt on
post pics as you proceed we will be happy to give you advice.

Takamines also had dowels just did one
John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
president of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com
Diane Kauffmds
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Re: Yamaki 331s top replacement?

Post by Diane Kauffmds »

Just for good measure, see if a rare earth magnet, one that's strong, reacts with the joint or heel. I doubt anyone has messed with the neck, but I found someone had buried a drywall screw in a heel.

I doubt very seriously if you'll have a problem like this, but a simple strong magnet will tell you if there's metal in there, unseen. It's just precautionary.
Diane Kauffmann
Country Roads Guitars
countryroadsguitars@gmail.com
Stray Feathers
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Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:39 pm
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Re: Yamaki 331s top replacement?

Post by Stray Feathers »

I am wondering if I can do this without removing the neck, just the fretboard from fret 9 or so (as Diane suggested) to uncover the top, then remove bindings (will require some hand work around neck), and then the top with heat and tools, hopefully with braces intact? But I will see what is exposed with part of the fretboard removed. Might remove the neck, and John, I like the idea of modifying it to a bolt-on. And Diane, I do remember discussing magnets when you were removing drywall screws! This guitar has been in my house or my family's since new so I think it is okay, but easy to check. Still in the planning stages . . .
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