First Fret Distance
Re: First Fret Distance
When I make the nut 0.7mm shorter to the frets, the consequence for the first fret is that it is about 2% closer (0.7 mm to 35 mm), so the note will be 2 cent flatter. It compensates for the bit sharp "shortfretted" notes.
Up the neck the effect decreases.
The consequence for the, lets say 12th fret, is (the distance nut-12th fret about half of 645mm=322mm) 0.7:322x100%=0.15%.
So half up the neck the fretlayout is just 0.15 percent shorter. So in that position an effect won't be hearable.
Up the neck the effect decreases.
The consequence for the, lets say 12th fret, is (the distance nut-12th fret about half of 645mm=322mm) 0.7:322x100%=0.15%.
So half up the neck the fretlayout is just 0.15 percent shorter. So in that position an effect won't be hearable.
-
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:15 am
Re: First Fret Distance
Herman,
I’m not sure I understand. Holding all else constant, moving the nut closer to the first fret should make the open note sharper, not flatter...
I’m still absorbing it, but I recommend this site if you are interested in nut compensation: setitupbetter.com
The method involves first achieving intonation among the fretted positions by tuning a low fret, like the 2nd, to be intonated with a higher fret, 12 or 14, for each string (not the 12th fret vs. the open string as is usually done). This is the stage at which bridge adjustments are made. This achieves better intonation among the fretted notes than does the 12th fret vs. open method, they claim (and makes sense to me).
Once that is done the fretted strings have been tuned to concert pitch (or whatever the target pitch is). The open strings are then intonated with the fretted strings using nut compensation to bring all of the open notes (that are otherwise flat at that point in the process) to concert pitch. I believe this is the correct way to think about it but perhaps someone can check this.
Tim
I’m not sure I understand. Holding all else constant, moving the nut closer to the first fret should make the open note sharper, not flatter...
I’m still absorbing it, but I recommend this site if you are interested in nut compensation: setitupbetter.com
The method involves first achieving intonation among the fretted positions by tuning a low fret, like the 2nd, to be intonated with a higher fret, 12 or 14, for each string (not the 12th fret vs. the open string as is usually done). This is the stage at which bridge adjustments are made. This achieves better intonation among the fretted notes than does the 12th fret vs. open method, they claim (and makes sense to me).
Once that is done the fretted strings have been tuned to concert pitch (or whatever the target pitch is). The open strings are then intonated with the fretted strings using nut compensation to bring all of the open notes (that are otherwise flat at that point in the process) to concert pitch. I believe this is the correct way to think about it but perhaps someone can check this.
Tim
-
- Posts: 1405
- Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:14 pm
- Location: Creedmoor, NC
Re: First Fret Distance
This topic is really starting to intrigue me now and I admit I have not read enough yet BUT is this nut compensation being used on classical guitars with no saddle compensation as well as steel strings that use saddle compensation? Seems the examples I've seen are on classicals with a straight saddle (no compensation). But as I say I'm not up to speed on this topic yet.
Tim Benware
Re: First Fret Distance
If you consequently tune your guitar on just fretted notes, your'right. But with a uncompensated nut the open note would be too flat in the first place. So be careful in which direction you look. And what is the problem? Is the open note sharp or is the fretted note flat?I’m not sure I understand. Holding all else constant, moving the nut closer to the first fret should make the open note sharper, not flatter...
Most of us, like me, tune with a tuner on open notes. Then the first fretted notes are often sharp. Decreasing the first fretdistance will make the fretted note flatter.
The link to the setupsite is interesting, Tim. I took a glimps and decided I have to look into this deeper an other time. But thank you for posting.
Herman
-
- Posts: 184
- Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:22 pm
Re: First Fret Distance
For those interested in nut compensation and lots of other goodies I suggest looking at Trevor Gore's two book set on Design And Build for guitars. I have just about everything I could find on theory and building published since the 70's and these are at the top of the list for me. Pricy but worth every penny.
Tom
Tom
" A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything "
-
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2013 3:30 pm
Re: First Fret Distance
Thanks to those who have posted on this topic. I found the linked article Setitupbetter very good. I also think that the Stephen Delft article that was mentioned there was very informative. The approach here appears to be that the open strings should be treated as the exceptions. And dealt with individually after the notes on the fretboard have been established by compensating the saddle to establish the second and the fourteenth fret as one octave apart.
I've been playing around with this for the past week and it appears to work well. I started with matchsticks and processed to small pieces of bone on the fretboard to extend the nut. I find that I can easily bring the open string into tune with the fetted notes on that string.
The only problem I have encountered is that the loose pieces of bone have a slight buzz when playing an open string. I don't think gluing the loose pieces in place will work for the base E string. Here the compensation extends approximately a quarter inch over the fretboard.
The next step appears to require removing some of the fretboard.
If anyone has been down this road already I would appreciate any information you can provide before I do something I might regret.
Thanks,
Gerry
I've been playing around with this for the past week and it appears to work well. I started with matchsticks and processed to small pieces of bone on the fretboard to extend the nut. I find that I can easily bring the open string into tune with the fetted notes on that string.
The only problem I have encountered is that the loose pieces of bone have a slight buzz when playing an open string. I don't think gluing the loose pieces in place will work for the base E string. Here the compensation extends approximately a quarter inch over the fretboard.
The next step appears to require removing some of the fretboard.
If anyone has been down this road already I would appreciate any information you can provide before I do something I might regret.
Thanks,
Gerry
-
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2019 9:37 am
- Location: Canada
- Contact:
First Fret Distance
I have a Kingston electric guitar I bought in an antique shop that was it pretty bad shape when I bought it. I took it apart, sanded and repainted it, put it back together, and now the strings are too close to the fret board which causes the strings to be muted. I have tried adjusting the nut, adjusting the bridge, and adjusting the truss rod, but with no effect. What should I try next??? Thanks
-
- Posts: 3284
- Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:13 pm
Re: First Fret Distance
Is this a problem with all of the strings, or only one or two? Have you identified where they are fretting out?Lenfrok wrote:I have a Kingston electric guitar I bought in an antique shop that was it pretty bad shape when I bought it. I took it apart, sanded and repainted it, put it back together, and now the strings are too close to the fret board which causes the strings to be muted. I have tried adjusting the nut, adjusting the bridge, and adjusting the truss rod, but with no effect. What should I try next??? Thanks
John Hall has a video on setting up an acoustic guitar, which would be helpful to you, even though you have an electric guitar. It's worth watching.
The truss rod's only purpose is to straighten the neck while the neck is under stress from the strings. It's not used to raise or lower the action. If you tightened the rod (most likely turning clockwise), then you may have inadvertently bent the neck too far back. Put a ruler, on edge between the strings, to see if the neck is straight. If not, then use the truss rod Ron straighten it. This nay may alleviate, or at least get you closer to solving your problem.
After verifying that the neck isn't over corrected, if the strings are fretting out on the first fret, then your nut slots are too deep. If they are fretting out further up the board, you may have to adjust the height of the saddle.
However , if it's only one or two strings, you could have a high fret. This is how you test:
Assuming that none of your strings are fretting out on fret 1:
Fret each string, starting with fret 1, and fret each fret, going up the board, until it doesn't fret out. This is your problem fret. Make a note of it. Do this with each string.
You may find that you have one fret that's causing the problem. If so, almost all, if not all strings will fret out on one fret. Take a look to make sure that it's seated and not moving up and down.
If you find find a fret that's moving in the slot, you can reglue it and clamp it down. Depending on the situation, I use thin CA glue to wick into the slot. If the fret is really loose, I remove it, clean the slot, then reglue with titebond or cold hide glue.
If the fret is properly seated, yet too high, you'll have to file it down until it's the same height as the rest of the frets. Use a sharpie marker, and mark the top of the fret. Using a crowning file, file it until the mark disappears. Recheck the height of the fret, using a fret rocker. Repeat until it's level with the neighboring frets.
I think, given the condition of the guitar, you may want to think about leveling the frets, crown, and polish them anyway.
But, first we really need to know where it's fretting out and if all the strings are fretting out in the same place.
-
- Posts: 3284
- Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:13 pm
-
- Posts: 599
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:49 pm
Re: First Fret Distance
Someone asked how much to take off the end of the fretboard. How big is a rock? I think the least invasive and most re-settable solution is to leave the fretboard alone and add a shelf to the nut, overhanging the fretboard. I think its depth can be easily altered removing material from the front of the shelf till the desired results happen. Too much material is easy to control, just remove it. The shelf can be oversized and trimmed back empirically. And by leaving the fretboard alone, it's easy to get back to the starting point, just remove the shelf.
peter havriluk