Dovetail Joint

[naccoachbob]

John, or anyone else who would chime in, I've got a question about what I should "feel" when I have the dovetail seated correctly.
Prior to finishing it, I had put the fretboard on the neck, and set the neck to the body. Of course, I had to put a hammer to it to get it "seated". It took a moderate blow, and I tried twisting and turning to make it come loose. It held pretty well. But I only had to tap it a little less than moderate to get the joint loose.
What I'm sensing is an "all or nothing" connection. I don't feel like the neck gets gradually seated. Should I feel that? Or is what I'm getting exactly what I should expect?
Neck to body joints have been the bane of my building thru 3 guitars. I am looking for something simpler. My friend, Luthier Stephen Kinnaird connects his neck with bolts. What I see is the neck heel totally flush, except he routs out the interior leaving about 1/8" to 3/16" border all around. He then puts in the inserts for the bolts. I've asked for pictures and maybe an explanation of how that all works. I don't remember seeing what the body looks like at that joint. What I'm thinking is that the body is totally flush, and that he just has to finesse the edges of the neck joint to make them join correctly. If someone else uses this approach, I'd appreciate a link to their work, or pictures if possible.
Thanks for any help guys.
Oh, by the way, if I'm not successful with this dovetail, I might just trim the neck back and do what Steve did. I'd just cut a block of wood to put into the body at the dovetail's area, and drill the holes.
Again, thanks,
Bob

[johnnparchem]

If the angle is right and it is centered sounds to me like you have a good joint. It should only take a tap to unseat an unglued dove tail.

I would wait for John for a real answer as I already switched to bolt on mortise and tenon.

[tippie53]

Once the fretboard is freted the downward push on the extension will cause it to feel worse.
I like to use a clamp.
If you seat the neck and you can't see it move you should be good to go. If you see some movement you can shim the joint .

[naccoachbob]

Thanks to both of you. I'm more comfortable now.

Do either of you have opinions on just butt joints for necks? Is there anywhere to find documentation on procedures for that type joint?

[B. Howard]

A properly fitted woodworking joint should be able to be seated with moderate hand pressure and require a solid tap to unseat.

As for but joint necks......many are doing them these days but you don't see any major makers using them. While it will work in the short term it looks like a warranty nightmare to me down the road.

[tippie53]

My best advice is to master the dovetail ,. it isn't that hard but most overthink it. Bolt on necks are 2nd butt joints are usually a sign of low end quality. Call me I can help with your neck fitting.

[sylvan]

I have done all type of neck joints including the dovetail, mortise & tenon bolt joint and butt joints. All work and work well if they are executed properly. As for manufacturers, Taylor's neck joint is a butt joint and they make and have made thousands of instruments, Bourgeois, Collings, and other smaller factories use a mortise & tenon bolt system. Bourgeois uses a totally mechanical joint bolting both the neck and the fretboard-no glue at all. All of these instruments sound great. The point of all of this is that all of these neck joints work, you just need to find the one that works best for you and your methods of building in your shop.

[tippie53]

Sylvan is right
I am a dovetailer
the key is that your joint must be secure.
Find what works for you.

[B. Howard]

As for manufacturers, Taylor's neck joint is a butt joint and they make and have made thousands of instruments

Technically not so. A but joint is simply two pieces butted together with absolutely no joinery. Taylors are actually a mortise and tenon. Even though the mortise is very shallow, still a mortise. A tenon also extends under the FB almost all the way to the sound hole. Frank Ford has some good pics here for those who have not seen one.
http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier ... joint.html

Not saying it is not good, just not a butt joint.

[naccoachbob]

I stopped at Stephen Kinnaird's shop this afternoon to talk to him about the butt joint that he uses on all his guitars. He's been building guitars for 30+ years, and really makes some very nice sounding and nice looking instruments. They measure neck angle at the body of the guitar, and then cut the neck heel with the complementary angle. They then use a Dremel to rout the inside of the neck heel a small amount, leaving about 1/8" around the perimeter.
He feels strongly that his necks will not have an adverse effect on the sound. He thinks they work as well as other joints sound-wise. They glue the fretboard extension to the top of the guitar, but do not glue the heel of the neck. The two bolts hold it securely. The plus for him is that if a neck were to need re-setting or replaced, it's just a matter of heating under the fretboard to separate that glue joint. Then the whole thing comes off.
Necks seem to be my downfall in building so far. I've done both the mortise and tenon and the dovetail. I really think the dovetail is a great joint, and if I could, I would chose it. I'm not sure how many more guitars I'll make. Is it worth my time to master that joint? Other than trying and trying again, I don't see any way of becoming expert at it.
The mortise and tenon isn't difficult. I did mess up a couple of times on my first two. But it's something that I think I can tame now. Especially since I learned on the last one and on this dovetail to put some relief on the interior of the heel.
I'm just going to keep reading and reading and watching John's videos on the dovetail, and I'll make that decision when I start my next one.
Everyone's given some great input on this, and I respect all points of view given so far.
Thanks to all for this "food for thought".
Bob