Tim Mcknight's glue study

[tippie53]

I like to see numbers on data.
Often people ask what glues are best. In my experience, top honors go to fish and Hot Hide Glue. Their dampening effects are less than Titebond and they don't creep. While Titebond is a decent glue for guitars, I think when we go on the quest to make the best guitar we can, we should utilize the best tools and procedures to achieve that goal. In 2009 Tim McKnight did a study of glues which was as scientific as I have seen and the results of which are helpful for deciding what glues you'll use in your quest.
Joint mating is paramount in achieving strong, long lasting glue joints and is directly proportionate to ultimate adhesion strength.
I select glue for my processes using the following criteria:
1) strength
2) ease of clean up
3) ease of repair
4) absence of creep
5) glue hardness once cured

In the glue game, when the wood fails before the glue fails, you've scored a touchdown. (As I hope the Steelers will do several times today)
I think lutherie adhesives is a worthwhile topic of discussion.

Here is where you'll find Tim's work:
http://mcknightguitars.com/glue-vib.html

[tippie53]

Updated
Tim asked me to also post this
http://www.mcknightguitars.com/special.html

[rienk]

interesting that the LMI white glue is very close to the hide glue.
May be a good choice for a beginning luthier.

If you intend to open the box in order to change bracing or other components you'd be doing yourself a favor by using easily reversible glues such as hot hide or fish glue.

-tommy

[rienk]

If you intend to open the box in order to change bracing or other components you'd be doing yourself a favor by using easily reversible glues such as hot hide or fish glue.
-tommy

I wish the study had included Fish glue for comparison.

[tippie53]

Fish glue is very similar to HHG , the thing with Fish glue is that it does dry hard.
Maybe your interest may be to verify the results of that glue test. Make a study of your own. Find the results and let us know. Without going into over kill of a subject let us be honest that if any glue pulls apart and has wood fibers on them , it is stronger than the wood and there for strong enough for the job intended . What we as luthiers are looking for is
Strength
ease of release
Lack of creep
sound dampening properties
clean up
Also glue when wet is a lubricant so think about that as you clamp , you don't want your joint to wander as you clamp.

[rienk]

Fish glue is very similar to HHG , the thing with Fish glue is that it does dry hard.
Maybe your interest may be to verify the results of that glue test. Make a study of your own. Find the results and let us know. Without going into over kill of a subject let us be honest that if any glue pulls apart and has wood fibers on them , it is stronger than the wood and there for strong enough for the job intended .

I barely have time to design my molds and bending patterns, let alone test glue. We use about $2k worth of adhesives each month, so I know all about the problems with glue-slip, cleaning, etc. We've done our own coupon testing on lots of adhesives, but never with HHG or Fish. Some of our materials have a working temperature range of only about 30 degrees, and though we do it, I don't like it. Thus, I'll probably skip HHG and start off with Fish and/or LMI white.

BTW, I drew up a Plate Joining Jig (very similar to LMI) thanks to the help of Dave Fifield at Cambrian Guitars.
I will post it in a separate thread, in case anyone want to download it to make their own.

[JLT]

I'm liking this thread!

I've used LMI glue for the most part in my previous builds, and hide glue in joins that were intended to be reversible, but now I'm rethinking that. Is there any downside at all to fish glue, as compared to hide glue (or to LMI glue,for that matter)?

I think I'll add a bottle of fish glue to the Lee Valley order I'm working up -- free shipping until January 7, you know.

[tippie53]

I use fish for most of the standard building processes. I have had been using for over 3 years and learned of this from a luthier from MY Museum. He used it for 20 yrs without an issue. I have had none and find it very user friendly. I also use HHG. Tite bond does creep , that issue has been proven.

[rienk]

I use fish for most of the standard building processes. I have had been using for over 3 years and learned of this from a luthier from MY Museum. He used it for 20 yrs without an issue. I have had none and find it very user friendly. I also use HHG. Tite bond does creep , that issue has been proven.

Where is a good source for Fish Glue?

Quality first, good price next...