Alan Carruth and I discussed break angle on UMGF
Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 11:13 pm
http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.y ... K7pCK5_biQ
Posted this from a discussion about break angle .
Many misunderstand this and what it does in the matters of a bridge.
John Hall wrote:
"I agree that the break angle is little in the inference to tone. The big change is the overall string height of the bridge/saddle . I think slotted bridges don't add much unless the slotting is so great to move the ball ends considerably . I wonder if your findings, Mr Carruth, are the same as mine."
Alan Carruth wrote:
"I did a semi-full-blown study of this, and came to pretty much the same conclusions. I made a plucking machine that works by looping a length of magnet wire behind the string and pulling on it until the wire breaks. This gives a repeatable pluck in terms of force, location on the string, and the direction of the initial displacement. I recorded six plucks on each open string of a classical guitar for each of three conditions:
A - strings 11mm off the top and a 25 degree break angle,
B- strings 11mm off the top and a six degree break angle, and,
C- strings 18mm off the top with a 25 degree break angle (don't try this at home!).
I made up a 'strum' using .7 seconds of a randomly chosen pluck from each string, and played back random pairs of strums through good headphones for listeners who were asked to rate them as 'the same' or 'different'. With about a hundred examples of each possible pair, people were statistically unable to tell the difference between case A and Case B, but were very able to pick out case C.
My statistics guru and I spend a lot of time looking at the sound files, taking them apart in different ways and trying to see what might be different. It looks as though people were hearing two things that were different in case C from the other two cases:
1) there's more energy in the second partial in particular, and in some of the other even-order partials, when the string is higher off the top. This is probably the twice-per-cycle tension change of the string, rocking the bridge toward the neck.
2) there is also more energy in the 'zip' tone; a high frequency longitudinal compression wave that is driven in a fairly complicated way, but also acts by pulling and pushing the bridge top the same way the tension change signal does. Again, greater leverage makes it stronger. Since the 'zip' tone is not a harmonic of the string (usually) it would add a 'noise' component to the signal, and it might well stand out strongly since it's usually up around the 7th partial pitch.
You certainly do need to have enough break angle to keep the string from slapping. Benedetto shows a six degree break in his archtop book, and that's one reason I settled on that as the 'low' break. It's possible that's not quite enough, but it's hard to say: the data I have is not sufficient to see one or two 'jumps' that the start of the note. There was more variation in the signal in the low break case, so that's circumstantial evidence.
I'm trying to get a paper out on this, but need to break it up into several shorter ones: the project ended up generating a lot of data from multiple experiments, and it's sort of confusing. The two things I learned for sure were how to do it better next time, and that I'll need to do a much bigger experiment to really nail it down. Still, I'm pretty confident about the results I've got, as far as they go."
Posted this from a discussion about break angle .
Many misunderstand this and what it does in the matters of a bridge.
John Hall wrote:
"I agree that the break angle is little in the inference to tone. The big change is the overall string height of the bridge/saddle . I think slotted bridges don't add much unless the slotting is so great to move the ball ends considerably . I wonder if your findings, Mr Carruth, are the same as mine."
Alan Carruth wrote:
"I did a semi-full-blown study of this, and came to pretty much the same conclusions. I made a plucking machine that works by looping a length of magnet wire behind the string and pulling on it until the wire breaks. This gives a repeatable pluck in terms of force, location on the string, and the direction of the initial displacement. I recorded six plucks on each open string of a classical guitar for each of three conditions:
A - strings 11mm off the top and a 25 degree break angle,
B- strings 11mm off the top and a six degree break angle, and,
C- strings 18mm off the top with a 25 degree break angle (don't try this at home!).
I made up a 'strum' using .7 seconds of a randomly chosen pluck from each string, and played back random pairs of strums through good headphones for listeners who were asked to rate them as 'the same' or 'different'. With about a hundred examples of each possible pair, people were statistically unable to tell the difference between case A and Case B, but were very able to pick out case C.
My statistics guru and I spend a lot of time looking at the sound files, taking them apart in different ways and trying to see what might be different. It looks as though people were hearing two things that were different in case C from the other two cases:
1) there's more energy in the second partial in particular, and in some of the other even-order partials, when the string is higher off the top. This is probably the twice-per-cycle tension change of the string, rocking the bridge toward the neck.
2) there is also more energy in the 'zip' tone; a high frequency longitudinal compression wave that is driven in a fairly complicated way, but also acts by pulling and pushing the bridge top the same way the tension change signal does. Again, greater leverage makes it stronger. Since the 'zip' tone is not a harmonic of the string (usually) it would add a 'noise' component to the signal, and it might well stand out strongly since it's usually up around the 7th partial pitch.
You certainly do need to have enough break angle to keep the string from slapping. Benedetto shows a six degree break in his archtop book, and that's one reason I settled on that as the 'low' break. It's possible that's not quite enough, but it's hard to say: the data I have is not sufficient to see one or two 'jumps' that the start of the note. There was more variation in the signal in the low break case, so that's circumstantial evidence.
I'm trying to get a paper out on this, but need to break it up into several shorter ones: the project ended up generating a lot of data from multiple experiments, and it's sort of confusing. The two things I learned for sure were how to do it better next time, and that I'll need to do a much bigger experiment to really nail it down. Still, I'm pretty confident about the results I've got, as far as they go."