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Alan Carruth Article on Intonation

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:58 pm
by tippie53
First: it's just about impossible to achieve 'perfect' intonation on an acoustic guitar. The fact that the top moves (which it has to or you would not hear the thing) means that at least one end of the strings is not 'fixed' as it has to be in order to work right. Temperament adds another level of complication: if you want to play in a number of keys, or use straight frets, there will always be compromises that render some intervals less 'pure' than you'd like. In short, there's not a lot you can do about some of the things that might sound 'off' to you.

The basic problem with setting up intonation is that the string tension rises when you fret them, throwing the pitch sharp. They go sharper at the first fret than you might think, because you displace them through a pretty sharp angle. As you go up the fretboard the pitch tends to get even sharper. How much it goes out depends on a lot of variables, with the nature of the particular string and the action height being big ones. Nylon strings, being more elastic than steel, tend to go less sharp, for example. A string that is fairly close to it's breaking point; a high E or wound G, will go less sharp than one that is relatively slacker. This draqs scale length into the problem, as well as tuning (play much in DADGAD?). It's possible to calculate this stuff if you have the math chops. For those of us who have not cultivated our inner Einstein, there is another way.

If you plot out the amount a string goes sharp in cents for each fret position, you get a line that starts out a bit high at the first fret, and rises as you go toward the saddle, as I said. Simplifying with desperate brevity; moving the nut toward the first fret shifts the whole line downward, while moving the saddle away from the 12th fret alters the slope. Moving the nut forward and re-tuning is the same as moving all of the frets back toward the nut, and shifts all the pitches downward by the same amount in cents. Moving the saddle away from the 12th fret adds proportionally more to the lengths of the higher notes, and thus makes them go flatter as you go up. Some combination of nut and saddle offset will get you pretty close to 'right' for any given string, but the offsets will be different for each string. The trick is to find those offsets.

As I say, it's possible to calculate this stuff, but for those of us who don't trust our math chops as much as we trust our tool chops, it's also possible to set up a rig to measure the offsets directly. The simplest setup is a beam with a flat top, that has the first, 11th and 12th frets set in at the right places. You have a movable nut and saddle, and some way of putting on a string and tuning it. It's easiest if the saddle has some sort of a pickup built in, so you can plug into a good tuner.

The way that I've found works pretty well is to put on a string, set up the action height, and start with the nut and saddle at their 'theoretical' positions, the same distance from the 12th fret. Tune the string as accurately as you can, and then fret it at the 12th fret, and see how much it's gone sharp. _Don't_ go by the 12th fret 'harmonic', which can actually be a bit sharp from the 'correct' pitch, due to string stiffness: always go by the fretted tone. Move the saddle away from the 12th fret and continue to check the pitches, re-tuning every time. When you get the octave as close as you think you can, go up and fret the string at the first fret. That note will be sharp too, so move the nut toward the fret until you get an exact semitone on the tuner. Now the 12th fret will be out, so you go back and fix it, which throws the first fret out, and so forth. Each time you go around the adjustment gets smaller, so at some point you just declare victory, note the offsets down, and go to the next string. I like to check each string three times, and average the results: somehow, no matter how careful I am, there's a certain amount of variation in the numbers.

I use these numbers to set up the nut, and establish the angle for the saddle slot. The lower strings often need to have the nut as much as 3mm closer to the first fret than it 'should' be, so I just cut off the fretboard there. I cut the nut, and use a Dremel to move the break point for the other strings back to the correct settings.

It seems to me that top movement is more likely to change the bridge offsets than the nut, so I don't file the saddle top before hand. Instead, I make it flat across the top, with the back edge a bit rounded, and put on the strings. Once I get the action right I use the old 'string under' trick to find the correct break points. Take a length of plain string, and put it sideways across the top of the saddle under one of the strings to lift it off the flat saddle top. Tune up the string, and move the lifter around until you get the octave pitch to be right at the 12th fret (not the 'harmonic!). Do each string, remove the saddle and file the peaks.

I did this on a 12-string I had at Montreal last summer. The octaves sounded like a Wes Montgomery solo, and when I checked it on a tuner no fretted note was more than 3 cents off. It was a certain amount of work, but I thought it was worth it. More to the point, the buyer is happy....


Last edited by Alan Carruth on Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Alan Carruth Article on Intonation

Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:50 pm
by Tim R
Hi. This sounds a lot like the compensated nut discussion on the setitupbetter site that I tried to peddle here a while back. No one seemed to think it was worth it, but I can tell the difference.

Anyways, humidity is falling in San Diego. About time to get back to the two 00s I'm working on. One curly mahogany/engelmann and the other walnut/cedar. :>)

Tim

Re: Alan Carruth Article on Intonation

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:43 am
by tippie53
it seems to be of a similar mode . Alan Carruth does carry a good bit of weight . These systems have been around for a while and it is gaining popularity.

Re: Alan Carruth Article on Intonation

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:07 am
by Tarhead
What happens to intonation when you fret a string with a compensated nut? Is it only intonated when played open?

Re: Alan Carruth Article on Intonation

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:27 am
by tippie53
this can be a very confusing subject. In reality , the fret scale length is static and won't change , and the string length ( working length ) when playing is in constant flux . This is what the art of compensation is . I call it art , as it is difficult to assess a number that takes care of all situations.
The variables of the equation are
A action height
B String metallurgical properties and thickness
C Fret height
D player techniques

So you see all ready there are things that are stirring the pot , so to say. The basic intonation is to allow a lengthening or a compensation of the scale length on the string. Often 1/10 of an inch . and then there is a compensation angle on the bridge for the saddle of about 3 degrees. The thicker the string the more compensation needed.
The trick here is to match this to the individual player and the guitar. The top of the guitar wants to move , the players technique may pull notes sharp by over fretting. Etc. So by manipulating the nut and the saddle we can match the intonation better on more frets. You will never get every note and fret to intonate perfectly , it isn't possible but you can but playing with the nut and saddle to get as many in as possible. There is a good article on tempered tuning that also will help.
http://paraglider.hubpages.com/hub/Equa ... tar-Tuning
What Alan Carruth is speaking about is how this all will work together. It takes time to learn these tricks and understand them but once you do , they are an invaluable tool for the builder and set up tech.

Re: Alan Carruth Article on Intonation

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:21 am
by Ben-Had
You would think that someone would invent an instrument that didn't need to be fretted and you could just strike an open string tuned to the correct note. It could probably get away with having 88 notes that were properly tuned and using colored strikers to distinguish between sharps and flats, etc. White and black might be nice contrasting colors to make that distinction:)

Re: Alan Carruth Article on Intonation

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:05 am
by Darryl Young
I'm using nut compensation on the 00 I'm building (Martin short scale). I won't take the time to do the thorough and reiterative steps Al did. I'm using 0.030" nut compensation (distance from nut to first fret is reduced 30 thou) and will hopefully get most of the benefit Al mentions. For the record, I'm still using saddle compensation as well but the saddle compensation will be reduced by 0.030" compared to the amount of saddle compensation I would use without nut compensation. Each individual string won't have it's ideal nut compensation but overall, intonation should be improved over saddle only compensation.

Re: Alan Carruth Article on Intonation

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 1:14 pm
by Tarhead
I'm still confused (as I am on most math related things ;')
If you fret a string anywhere on the fretboard, that fret becomes the temporary nut for the string. How does changing the position of the string break on the permanent nut change the intonation on a fretted string? I understand how the string gauge, finger pressure, etc has an effect but it seems like the nut is taken out of the equation.

Re: Alan Carruth Article on Intonation

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:26 pm
by Darryl Young
Tarhead wrote:I'm still confused (as I am on most math related things ;')
If you fret a string anywhere on the fretboard, that fret becomes the temporary nut for the string. How does changing the position of the string break on the permanent nut change the intonation on a fretted string? I understand how the string gauge, finger pressure, etc has an effect but it seems like the nut is taken out of the equation.
If you move (compensate) the saddle, you change the string length from every fret to the saddle and the distance from the nut to the saddle (every note is affected). When you compensate (move) the nut, you only affect the open string.......the fret to saddle distances are not affected.

So if you assumed that fretting a string at each location stetches the string the same amount causing the notes at every fret to go sharp an equal amount (not really true), then to compensate for string stretch, you don't want to affect both the open notes and the fretted notes. There is no additional string stretch when playing an open string (it's not fretted). Moving the saddle affects open and fretted notes and we don't want to affect both.

If you move the nut toward the bridge (decrease string length) but leave the string at the same tension, it will play slightly sharp (compared to how it played before moving). Now decrease the string tension (retune) so the string no longer plays sharp (back to it's original tuning). If you moved the nut the correct distance and re-tuned accurately, the open string will now be in tune.......and now fretting a string will stretch it back to it's original tension so the fretted note plays exactly like it did before moving the nut. Make sense? So both the open notes and the fretted notes play in tune (or at least more in tune). So by moving the nut we are able to affect fretted notes without affecting open notes.........or maybe I should say we are able to affect the open notes without affecting fretted notes (sorry, my mind just went into a recursive loop.....must abort.......). Well, it had a different affect on open notes than it did on fretted notes.

In reality, each string has a different height over the fingerboard.....and the height varies depending on fret location.......so the stretch for each string and at all locations on the fretboard. Also, different gauge strings affect the amount of "sharpness" added when a note is fretted. There are more considerations, but you get the point. So an absolute value for nut compensation will never be perfect for every string, but I'm convinced that a little nut compensation along with an appropriate amount of saddle compensation is better than saddle compensation alone.

Re: Alan Carruth Article on Intonation

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:35 pm
by Ben-Had
Tarhead wrote:I'm still confused (as I am on most math related things ;')
If you fret a string anywhere on the fretboard, that fret becomes the temporary nut for the string. How does changing the position of the string break on the permanent nut change the intonation on a fretted string? I understand how the string gauge, finger pressure, etc has an effect but it seems like the nut is taken out of the equation.
Pushing down on the string to hit the fret actually increases (stretches) the length of the string. Think of it as creating a triangle of the two string position (open and fretted) i.e. the length of the string from the fret to the saddle is slightly longer than the distance of the open string directly above the fret to the saddle.