archtop/acoustic hybrid?

[eungholee2]

So what I can gather from the batson guitars is that they use a cantilevered neck and a bridge/tailpiece system that is found on archtop guitars to allow for the top of the guitar to vibrate better.

Has anyone tried the later (sticking an archtop bridge + tailpiece on an flat top acoustic)?
Would it be possible? and is there a difference in the width of the strings on an acoustic that would make an archtop tailpiece impossible?

Also, has anyone tried a cantilevered neck? how do they work?

[deadedith]

I asked the same question re: the tailpiece and bridge, the common consensus being that it would not be an efficient transmission of string energy on a flat-top. If I can find the thread I will send it to you.

edit: here it is: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=427

[eungholee2]

I asked the same question re: the tailpiece and bridge, the common consensus being that it would not be an efficient transmission of string energy on a flat-top. If I can find the thread I will send it to you.

edit: here it is: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=427

hmm. So from what I gather is that they just need the correct bracing to back it up, and that it might not sound as good. what about the batsons? they sound great, and they have a non-adjustable floating bridge and tailpiece.

also, I found a photo of this being done here: http://www.oliver-guitars.com/Images.html
click the arrows to the far right.

[Tony_in_NYC]

I've always thought that archtops would benefit from a pin-style glue-on bridge but that's pretty radical.

BLASPHEMY!!!!
The Lutherie Police just called and they have asked me to collect your tools, wood, and your lutherie license. This kind of radical thinking will not be tolerated in the lutherie community. Please ship everything to me. I will PM you the address. Also, due to the seriousness of this infraction, you are going to have to cover the shipping. Standard Protocol. Please have the Brazilian Rosewood properly packaged in protective wrapping to prevent damage during the shipping. Same goes for the other woods as well.

[eungholee2]

The idea might seem more plausible if you think of a fixed bridge, one with a non-adjustable height. that could be the source of the acoustic vibrations connecting with the top of the guitar, and yet have a tailpiece that would take a lot of the pressure off the top allowing for a lighter bracing.

[kencierp]

As Rick has stated:

"But here's the deal: you have to create some serious downpressure on the bridge to hold it in place and transfer energy to the top."

Take a look at the violin family of instruments -- very tall bridges lots of downward pressure. Take a look at arched top jazz guitars -- very short contour radius tall bridges -- lots of downward pressure -- mandolin, banjo same thing. So again as Rick mentioned lots of cheapos where made with tail pieces mainly because the makers would not have to worry about the bridges tearing off. Flat tops have the strings pulling on the bridge -- creating a very lively direct connection as opposed to a passive connection of the strings pressing on the bridge. $.02

[eungholee2]

thanks a lot for the info! ah well. thought it might be an interesting project to take on. I'm really researching a lot on the subject... this and offset or even side-only soundholes. on the subject of bracing, would the guitars without a soundhole on the top have the same bracing style as any other? or would it be thinner?

[Tony_in_NYC]

Well said Rick. You can keep you luthier's license. Feel free to send me your supplies though. The luthier police said that would be ok but I will have to cover shipping.

[deadedith]

Then again, people build for different reasons - fun, income, plain ol' creativity, some like to try new things - I think we need all kinds.

[Tony_in_NYC]

Lots of things have already been tried with flat top acoustic guitars. Some were successful, others, well...not so much. But those failures do not mean that another luthier will not succeed where another has failed. So DaveB, if you want to experiment, go for it. But look at the experiments of others first to see where they failed so you do not make the same mistakes. When Edison "invented" the light bulb (invented in quotes since light bulbs had been around for many years before he patented it, though he did improve them greatly) he failed hundreds of times. He did not consider those unsuccessful attempts as failures, but as proving the many ways not to make a light bulb. Thus, the many people who have tried to make a floating bridge and tailpiece flat top acoustic before you have successfully shown how not to do it. You just need to figure out HOW to do it! You got a head start!
The geometry of the neck to body of a viol family instrument is a place to start. Then you need to figure out how to brace the box to support the floating bridge. Arch top guitars, which were designed to support the added stress of the floating bridge, tend to cave in over time. Something to think about.
Maybe a flat top with a sound post like a violin would help to support the added stress. I remember reading in one of Siminof's books about an experiment he did where he held the bridge of a flat top acoustic guitar from moving. First, he stopped it from moving up and down, and then he stopped it from rocking back and forth. I believe that when he stopped the rocking motion, it caused a much greater decrease in the sound output of the guitar. My memory however, has been known to be fuzzy, so take this info with a few large grains of salt!