He folks new kit builder here but a pretty experienced woodworker with a question.
I know that building with white glue/yellow glue/hide glue is the traditional and preferred way to construct a guitar but really why not epoxy? - for kitbuilders and amateurs is seems to me to make a lot of sense - gap filling, strength etc.
I understand maybe not using it for neck dovetail or other parts that may want to come apart - but why not braces and linings and endblocks?
I have used epoxy in many other woodworking projects with fantastic results - is it just a tradition thing? - or is there really a tone difference? -- anyone here build a guitar with epoxy care to comment
tnx all
Building with epoxy
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ray40
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tippie53
- Posts: 7127
- Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:09 pm
- Location: Hegins, Pa
- Contact:
Re: Building with epoxy
These glues are used because of reversibility . Epoxy is difficult to reverse .Often a part will need be unglued . A little heat and steam will release most wood glues.
Epoxy also often will have a thicker glue seam and has more dampening effects .
Epoxy also often will have a thicker glue seam and has more dampening effects .
John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
president of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
president of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com
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David L
- Posts: 1319
- Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:04 pm
- Location: Slidell, La
Re: Building with epoxy
Hey Ray40, welcome to the forum! Someone on this forum built almost a whole guitar with epoxy, can't remember who, he was building with one of oily rosewoods, can't remember which one, maybe cocobolo, I'm sure he will chime in. BTW, whatcha building?
David L
David L
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kencierp
Re: Building with epoxy
Gluing soundboard bracing with epoxy would add weight to the diaphram --- not good!!
Read this it may be surprising and may not support your reasoning:
http://www.titebond.com/Download/pdf/Ho ... ue_FWW.pdf
Read this it may be surprising and may not support your reasoning:
http://www.titebond.com/Download/pdf/Ho ... ue_FWW.pdf
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Kevin Sjostrand
- Posts: 3945
- Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:06 pm
- Location: Visalia, CA
Re: Building with epoxy
Chime!!!
Hi Ray and welcome!
I did use epoxy on a guitar a year ago that was cocobolo. It is an oily rosewood. I first used AR glue on the back braces and to glue the back to the rim. Both failed when I was trimming of the excess back material. I took it apart, removed the bracing and reglued the back seam and the new braces using epoxy. I then also glued the back to the rims with epoxy. I used a new Gorilla glue to glue the cocobolo bridge to the top, but I can't remember what type it is. It is not the urethane stuff.
That was the extent of it however. I only used it because of the wood, and did not want the chance of a failure down the road. Otherwise, I would not use it for the reasons John explained.
Kevin
Hi Ray and welcome!
I did use epoxy on a guitar a year ago that was cocobolo. It is an oily rosewood. I first used AR glue on the back braces and to glue the back to the rim. Both failed when I was trimming of the excess back material. I took it apart, removed the bracing and reglued the back seam and the new braces using epoxy. I then also glued the back to the rims with epoxy. I used a new Gorilla glue to glue the cocobolo bridge to the top, but I can't remember what type it is. It is not the urethane stuff.
That was the extent of it however. I only used it because of the wood, and did not want the chance of a failure down the road. Otherwise, I would not use it for the reasons John explained.
Kevin
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Herman
Re: Building with epoxy
Ding dong, 2nd chime:
The only time I used epoxy was with a same project as Kevin's. Cocobolo back and sides. LMI did advise me to use their woodepoxy on the cocobolo, so I did.
My expirience:
Epoxy is good on sloppy work, it fills great, it glues everything and it does not shrink.
Otherwise it smears, it is hard to whipe the squeezeout clean, it smells strange, it has a long clamping time, it has almost no initial tack, it tends to slide while clamping, it is yellow (LMI) and it dries not "glassy-hard" which is IMO a bad thing in vibration-transmission.
I'm a fan of LMI whiteglue. (works very nice, good clamping time and dries clear).
The cocobolo guitar is ok and sounds good btw.
Herman
The only time I used epoxy was with a same project as Kevin's. Cocobolo back and sides. LMI did advise me to use their woodepoxy on the cocobolo, so I did.
My expirience:
Epoxy is good on sloppy work, it fills great, it glues everything and it does not shrink.
Otherwise it smears, it is hard to whipe the squeezeout clean, it smells strange, it has a long clamping time, it has almost no initial tack, it tends to slide while clamping, it is yellow (LMI) and it dries not "glassy-hard" which is IMO a bad thing in vibration-transmission.
I'm a fan of LMI whiteglue. (works very nice, good clamping time and dries clear).
The cocobolo guitar is ok and sounds good btw.
Herman
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Ken C
Re: Building with epoxy
Ding Dong Ding, 3rd chime!
About my only use of epoxy typically is to glue on fingerboards and set inlays. However, I just finished building a guitar out of spalted wood. The wood didn't have a lot of structural integrity, so I soaked it with CA to stabilize it. I didn't think the traditional wood glues would provide much strength, thus the epoxy. Practically everything that got glued to the spalted wood was glued with epoxy, i.e., joining the panels, neck block, tail block, kerfing, back reinforcement strip, back braces. The one exception was the bindings, which were glued on with CA. Not at all my favorite way to build, but felt that to keep everything together, epoxy was the best choice.
Ken
About my only use of epoxy typically is to glue on fingerboards and set inlays. However, I just finished building a guitar out of spalted wood. The wood didn't have a lot of structural integrity, so I soaked it with CA to stabilize it. I didn't think the traditional wood glues would provide much strength, thus the epoxy. Practically everything that got glued to the spalted wood was glued with epoxy, i.e., joining the panels, neck block, tail block, kerfing, back reinforcement strip, back braces. The one exception was the bindings, which were glued on with CA. Not at all my favorite way to build, but felt that to keep everything together, epoxy was the best choice.
Ken
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ray40
Re: Building with epoxy
tnx folks - Very informative.
Now that I have started assembly I realize how convenient the quick 30 minute set up time of white/yellow glue is versus the slower set up of epoxy.
Now that I have started assembly I realize how convenient the quick 30 minute set up time of white/yellow glue is versus the slower set up of epoxy.
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Herman
Re: Building with epoxy
This morning I bumped the overhanging part of the cocobolofingerboard of my current build that was glued with LMIepoxy to the neck and the epoxy cracked over 2 inches! Lesson: Even with the epoxy coco is tricky stuff. I think with "normal" wood and white glue this would not have happened.