Need Advice on build #3 & 4

[rgogo65]

Oh my Gosh! Well, here we go...the last time I posted an opinion on building acoustics I got my hands slapped...but I'm a glutton for punishment....so here goes... :)

I'm certainly no "Professional". I've spent 60 years playing these things. I spent the first half of my life around some pretty successful innovators and builders of the time.
I've spent the last 5 years gathering a LOT of information from a LOT of sources on building... and I've drawn some conclusions that may or may NOT fit the common mold.

What ever my opinion may or may not be worth, it's at least a little different from the average, so maybe it won't be boring. :)

There seems to be some common threads in successful building. (The definition of which is again by and large, subjective....because what's "Successful" to you? Good sound? Good looks? Quantity of sales? and so on...it's entirely SUBJECTIVE measured by many rules and scales. ) But I think it's pretty much broken into 4 basic Elements.

1. The MATERIALS.

Pretty much goes without saying. Woods that are normally used over the ages for musical instruments. Cut, handled and prepared in the generally accepted manner...really doesn't matter otherwise.

Looks are one thing, performance is quite another and even though most builders have their "Preferences" most will agree that a great sounding guitar can be constructed with just about ANY good wood combination used correctly.

I've played Sitka spruce topped Mahogany guitars that would and DO absolutely blow away the best looking BRW Adirondack topped beauties that were built with
sloppy construction.

2. The..FINISH!

Everybody know the finish will make or break the instrument. LOL
Again, my opinion...use normally accepted thinly applied hard finishes, lacquers, varnishes, French polish, etc. you really can't go wrong today. It's what works best for YOU> Once again, it's by and large SUBJECTIVE.

3. The SHAPE!

OMG! Not you've done it. It's a can of worms. The OM or the 000 is WAY better than the BIG growler "D". Parlor's are a waste of time, they just don't have the power...and on and on and on.

I have played wonderful examples of all the sizes from the size 5 Terz (Including one that Marty Robbins owned and played) all the way up to the big early J-200's and I have seen examples of ALL that would just amaze you.

SO.. Size is another pretty subjective thing, dependant on what "Fit's" the player and what doesn't.

But it just depends huh? So what makes one sound BETTER or louder, or have more clarity, or have more bass than the NEXT one? IMHO (ALL subjective)...but there ARE distinct differences aren't there? We know that, we all agree with that I think...

But if you take two identical kits, with identical bracing, woods and materials and have two different people build them, they will invariably sound DIFFERENT? Why IS that?

4. QUALITY CONTROL

Last but not least, I've come to the conclusion that precise shaping and connecting of the individual parts in the right order, joints, application of proper glues, cleanliness, and attention to DETAIL collectively, are quite possibly the secret to the BEST sounding and playing guitars.

Like I said, I get slapped around sometimes because of my views and opinions. One of the reasons I don't post much... I've been told by some here that they aren't impressed by my examples, like Wayne Henderson...and Dana Bourgeois for example, they say these guy's are no better than anybody else at what they do, and that may be true.. (Even though the rest of the music world doesn't quite see it that way)
It's OK :)

Because regardless of what you might think, I can tell you one thing for certain, they precisely do what they do and they do it consistently...time after time after time.... day after day.

I have watched Wayne Henderson remove a tiny amount of wood from a brace on a red spruce top, pull the wood up to his chest and gently tap it with his finger, and repeat until it provides what ever it is that HE is looking and listening for and until it satisfies HIM.

He's the ONLY one who knows what that IS...he's heard it before, he knows when he hears it again...and he won't settle for less. Good enough... just isn't "Good enough!"

His joints are perfect in every way..I can guarantee you that he can cut a notch to inlet an brace on a guitar today and the one he does a month from now will be within .001 of the same dimension as the previous and he doesn't use mics. He has built enough and is sensitive enough that he can "Feel" the difference. He's done it enough that he KNOWS what will work (For HIM) and what will not.

I have measured his pocket knife cut scallop in a top brace for a Henderson Dred. and compared it with a 1937 Martin and it was EXACTLY the same. Every piece precisely fits the next and so on. I have examined the joints with a magnifying glass and the precision was astonishing.

In his words.."The vibration needs a bridge to travel from one component to the next as if it were one piece, and that's what I try to do..make it a ONE PIECE UNIT as precisely as I can!"

If there is a "Secret" I think that's it...precise joinery, precision building with consistent Luthiery practices.

Wayne Henderson is a humble Man. He says he has really developed nothing new. He says all he's done is copy EXACTLY what the Old Timers did when they built the Holy Grail of acoustics in the early days...and he does it consistently. He may have a point.
Thanks for listening to my babble, go easy on me now...it's just an opinion and I'm Old. :) LOL LOL

[tippie53]

I know Wayne personally and he is a terrific talent. I hope to get my guitar from him next year. If you can go to the festival in June please treat yourself to it. The talent and show is well worth it.

[dandenson]

I want to thank everyone for taking the time to respond to my post. If there was a concensus, it was that I should

1. Make my braces much lighter than the plans call for.
2. Go ahead and use spruce for the top.
3. Build as lightly and as well as I can.
4. Keep building!

Regards,
Dan

[tippie53]

There is a way to look at this . If you don't do it . you won't ever fail , if you try you may succeed . I think you have to give it a shot . You may never make a living but you may learn a new skill and have a great hobby.

[Ken Hundley]

rgogo65, you certainly said a lot there, and I musta missed the posts where you got slapped around....hope it all boiled down to misinterpretation. We welcome differences of opinion here, its how we learn. We may argue, sometimes passionately about certain things, but many times thats what it takes to get something through our thick heads. You know what thats like, ask your significant other..;)...I won't bother asking mine. I warned her before we got married.

Anwyay, A lot of what you talked about boils down to one simple concept: What is good?
1. What is a good sounding guitar? bassy? Woody? Shrill and chimey? Broad-ranged? Tight?
2. Once you answered that, what is a good top? Tight grains? Loose grains? Stiff? Thin? Thick?
3. So how about back and side woods? And Brace woods? And Strings? And finish? And your fingernails? Or the picks you use?

So many things affect the sound of the guitar as it compares to what each of us has decided is good, whether we know it or not. This is why we will pick up most guitars and put them down again. This is why we may pick one guitar, and keep coming back to it, finding some new nuance we never realized about it, though we may have been playing it for years now. That guitar is the closest to "good" we have seen. And what I think is good won't come near enough at all for others. Think of the variations in the music we listen to alone, and how that affects our perception of a good sound. It may even have a lot to do with how good the stereo equipment was you grew up listening too! How different does a song sound on a car radio compared to 7.1 surroundsound at 500 watts? VERY different. So I don't think you are off, I think you have illustrated the complexity of trying to define the perfect guitar. I have the sound in mind, and haven't found it yet. My first build, a Martin Rosewood Jumbo, came VERY VERY close. Ever since then, they have been wide of the mark, though satisfying in their own right.

Dan, I think most agree the Andes plans are way over engineered, but I am sure they have turned out some pretty fantastic sounding guitars, or consumers would have demanded some significant changes to it. I look at a set of instructions for just about anything as a guideline, not a law, and leave it to my interpretation and my set of goals to define the outcome. If there is something you feel could or should change, then go for it. If you are unsure, ask here, and you will get a number of opinions pro and otherwise. Pick what resonates the best with you and try it. If you are not happy, well, you have a reason to build more then.

[tippie53]

What it boils down to is to start and keep a log . Learn the cause and effect relationship of what you do to your guitar . I started with a Martin kit and Antes plans . My OM ANtes is as dead as a door nail . But It gave me a base line. Keep a building log and do not make many changes so you can see what happens and why. I am now on 115 and do this for a living . I am a lucky man to say the least. In what was stated so far all is true .
Once you get to make a good sounding guitar , it is the fit and finish issues that can be the hardest to master . The right tool or technique for the job is often hard to learn . Experience is a great teacher but so can sharing . Most of the good builders that I know are open and informative to newbies . There is more than one way to do anything . Find the technique that works best for you . Finishing is an art and one that we all must master or learn to farm out to one that has .
I love this craft and we do have a few excellent builders that visit . I hope we help you in some small way

[dandenson]

Ken,
You are right, of course. Guitar #2 is a Scott Antes small jumbo which is opening up to be a VERY good sounding guitar. I shaved the top braces down from what the plans call for, but doesn't everybody?

The back braces are pretty stout and I might make them lighter on the next one. But then again, maybe not. It doesn't seem to hurt anything.

Do most people make their braces exactly the size called for in the plans, or do ya'll shave em?

Regards,
Dan

[Tony_in_NYC]

Ken,


Do most people make their braces exactly the size called for in the plans, or do ya'll shave em?

Regards,
Dan

My kits have all come from Ken Cierp and he does not provide detailed blueprints with the kit that show brace dimensions. However, his braces come in a raw form, contoured on one edge for the dome of the top or back, and have a scalloped shape drawn on them. Even if he did send detailed blue prints, I would get annoyed trying to make my braces the exact same size as shown on the plans.
The brace shapes Ken pencils on the top braces are based off of Pre-War Martin shapes as a starting point for some, and an ending point for others. My braces ended up being slightly smaller than the shape he pencils on and both guitars I have completed sound great.
You could make your braces exactly as Antes shows, and you will end up building a copy of an Antes guitar. Or you can make the braces smaller, wider, taller, or flatter, or anything else you want to try. Take notes and dimensions, and when its strung up, if you like how it sounds, copy that next time. If you think you can get more out of the guitar, have the braces more next time.
I dont think anyone exactly duplicates the plans. What fun is there in that?

[rgogo65]

I want to thank everyone for taking the time to respond to my post. If there was a concensus, it was that I should

1. Make my braces much lighter than the plans call for.
2. Go ahead and use spruce for the top.
3. Build as lightly and as well as I can.
4. Keep building!

Regards,
Dan

Dan,
IMHO I think you are "Right on" in your assessment. Remember that it's personally SUBJECTIVE!
On #3, judge your guitar by what YOU like. Because ultimately, YOU are the one who has to be pleased the most. Sooooo.....(In no particular order)
A. What about the sound? Does it have the bass response YOU like? Need more? LESS?
B. What about treble? are the notes separated? Clear?
C. It it "MUSHY" or balanced?
D. Does the neck shape feel "Right"?
E. What about the body? Too thin/thick/long/short? What?
F. Fit and Finish?

Make 2 columns... one for "Likes" the other for "Dislikes" list these items with the thought of CHANGING some and repeating OTHERS!
What would you DO to make the changes in the direction you wish? In other words, research what it would take to say give the guitar MORE bass. (Remove material from the bass bracing? How much? and so on, until you have a plan to CORRECT those things that you DO NOT care for.

On #4 then... try to make the corrections needed on #3 and REPEAT those things you LIKE on #3.

Then compare one with the other when finished..how DO they compare? Still not enough BASS? Plan to correct that with #5...TOO much bass? remove LESS material on #5...when it's "Just right" make notes so THAT can be repeated in the future...and so on...
As an example, Wayne Henderson has just passed his 500Th...when I asked him if he has built the "PERFECT Guitar"...(At 428) his response was a smile and a simple "Nope, not yet!" I've had similar answers from others as well...most don't think it's possible and most don't want to EVER build it, but they will always seek it, at least in their own mind...it's the striving for that special sound, or excellence or look or what ever it is they seek that will keep them building, hoping they will be able to find that one piece of wood and make it respond in that certain way that will DO IT...( At least for them!)
So yes, keep building and may you never be satisfied.

Ray

[hummingbird]

That makes sense to tweak the sound as you build more guitars but I assume that would only work if you build the same model every time. How can you carry over the good traits of a jumbo to an OM or dred?