Tim Mcknight's glue study

[tippie53]

If you are using more than a gallon Norland
http://www.norlandprod.com/fishgel/hightack.html

[tippie53]

http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/v ... glues.aspx
add this one to the glue listing

[rienk]

http://www.finewoodworking.com/how-to/v ... glues.aspx
add this one to the glue listing

What was the result of the test?
It would be nice to have it posted here.

[edit] Let me clarify. I am not asking for copyrighted material or for someone to post the entire article. I was wondering what the "bottom line" was, and if it showed some definitive choices - and thought others might also be curious.
Frankly, I'm more interested in comparisons of Fish to HHG.

[tippie53]

taken from Norlands web site on Fish glue strength


High Tack Fish Glue

Application Methods

Surface may be coated by roller coat, knife coat or brush coat.
Applications

1. As an additive to adhesive formulations in the manufacture of remoistenable gummed paper packaging tapes.

2. Wood gluing when long open times are needed for assembly operations.

3. Paper bonding of heavy grade box board in packaging.

4. Bonding of manila paper for identification tag manufacturing.

5. As a water based leather finish.

6. Any application where it is desirable to supply an adhesive coated surface which is to be re-activated much later by simple water remoistening.
Advantages

1. High initial tack when first coated or when remoistening the dry adhesive film.

2. Slow setting for wood bonding applications when open times are desirable.

3. Good solvent resistance.

4. Excellent heat resistance.

5. Easily thinned and cleaned up with water.
Properties

An organic fish glue with high initial tackiness. Once coated and allowed to dry, High Tack Fish Glue has excellent remoistening properties. This allows for easy re-activation of adhesive by water at a later time for bonding. High Tack Fish Glue has good solvent and heat resistance but poor water resistance.

Color


Light Caramel

Temperature Range


-30°F to +500°F

Time to Tack


1 Minute

Open Time


1.5 to 2 Hours

Viscosity


Medium brush on (4000 cps)

Storability


Excellent (Freeze-Thaw Stable)

Flammability


Non-Flammable

Shear Strength


3200 PSI with 50% wood failure (ASTM D 905)

Cold Bonding - While adhesive films are still wet materials should be bonded and maintained under pressure until adhesive sets. Suggested clamping time for wood, 12 hours.

Re-activation - Surfaces coated with High Tack Fish Glue and allowed to dry may be readily re-activated by a light coat of water. The remoistened surface develops immediate tack and may be bonded to many surfaces including steel, glass and wood.

Adhesive Additive - Gummed paper tape - It is recommended that 10% be added to the basic adhesive formulation to obtain maximum tack retention and cold water remoistening properties. A 5% addition would be a minimum recommendation.

Leather Finishing - High Tack Fish Glue has very high leather pigment suspending power, good gloss and excellent heat resistance. A small addition to leather finishing solutions, depending on the formulation, is all that is required.

SOLVENTS:

Thinning - water

Clean up - water

[tippie53]

This information is from Tool for Working Wood web site and is where I get my HHG.


Quantity in Cart: none
Code: MS-HIDEGL.XX
192 gram Strength - Marquetry - 1 Lb. ($9.95) In Stock
192 gram Strength - Marquetry - 5 Lb. ($42.29) In Stock
251 gram Strength - Cabinetmaking - 1 Lb. ($11.95) In Stock
251 gram Strength - Cabinetmaking - 5 Lb. ($50.79) In Stock
315 gram Strength - High stress - 1 Lb. ($11.95) In Stock
315 gram Strength - High stress - 5 Lb. ($50.79) In Stock
192 gram Strength - High clarity - (more transparent) - 1 Lb. ($11.50) In Stock
192 gram Strength - High clarity - (more transparent) - 5 Lb. ($48.88) In Stock
Quantity:
Hide glue is the oldest and most traditional of all the glues used in woodworking. Hide glue has some good and bad features: on the minus side, it must be used hot (click below for information about glue pots); it can spoil; and cheap glue smells bad. But its positive features are numerous: it is easily reversible; easy to repair; easy to sand; essentially non-toxic; the resulting joint will not creep; and best of all, it is transparent to most finishes so you don’t get visible glue blotches near a joint.

Hide glue is the traditional glue for veneering, and a bit of practice you can successfully veneer without a pile of clamps or a vacuum press. It’s the perfect glue for the occasional veneerer. It’s also great furniture glue. You can do many joints just by rubbing the wood parts together until they get tacky and stick - no need for clamps.

Hide glue is sold in many different "gram strengths." The higher the gram strength, the tackier and stronger the glue. The stronger the glue is, the less "open time" you have between when the glue is applied and when it sets and immobilizes the item being glued. The hide glue we stock is made by the last maker of hide glue in the US. It’s the highest refined hide glue available with the least amount of odor. We sell three different gram strengths:

The 192 gram strength is a good general purpose glue, and it’s the least expensive hide glue around. That’s why it’s the most common. Its real application is veneering, although you can use it for regular gluing in a pinch. A lot of people consider it the best all-around glue for general woodworking (including veneering), because it also has the longest open time. If you are new to hide glue, this is the grade you should get.
The 251 gram strength glue is traditionally the most appropriate for regular cabinetwork. Its higher strength means that you can do rub joints more easily, and clamped joints will have less time to creep. But it’s not optimal for veneering, when you’d want the maximal amount of time for squeezing out the excess glue.
The 192 gram strength "high clarity" is more expensive than its cousins because it is especially refined for maximum transparency. It’s a good all-around glue that’s slightly more tacky then the regular 192 glue. This is the glue to use if you are worried about visible glue lines.
The 315 gram strength is a special purpose glue for very high stress applications. It is favored primarily by instrument makers for situations where a joint will be under constant force. Of the glues the 315 has the shortest open time.

Note: Due to customs restrictions we cannot ship glue to addresses outside the United States. Made in the USA.
Related Blog Articles:

[rienk]

So, let's see if this is a fair recap.

Fish glue has "poor water resistance". The pros of this is that it can be easily reactivated and has fairly long open time. The cons of this is that any significant amount of moisture exposure will release the glue, and it takes a fairly long clamping time to set.
So, how much moisture exposure will cause a Fish glue joint to fall apart? Dropping it in the swiming pool? Leaving it in the sauna? Or even a hot, muggy day in the bayous?
For some reason, this concerns me. However, John and others have been successfully using it for some time, so it can't be that temperamental ...

Hide glue is succeptable to "heat." The pros to this are that it can be loosened and reworked by applying heat, and good quality HHG finishes well. The cons are that if you're not careful, the glue will gel or setup too fast, and you may end up with a worthless joint if it cools before it sets. Also, any exposure to elevated temperature could cause the joints to come undone.
So how much heat is too much? Accidentally leaving it in kiln or autoclave? Leaving it in the sauna? Or accidentally leaving it in a black case in the back of your car on a hot Arizona day?
The heat issue doesn't concern me too much, as it seems to have a fairly high transition temperature. However, not getting a proper joint in the first place seems to be a common concern for many - at least those just starting out with this type of adhesive (though I've read about luthiers with decades of experience who still sweat over this - and one who even does test coupons for every batch that he puts together).

Why can't this horse race have a clear winner?
If it does, I'd love to hear about it.

Why can't this horse race have a clear winner?
If it does, I'd love to hear about it.

Not analogous to a horse race. More like deciding which car to purchase or where to go on vacation.
You gather the facts, take a test drive and make a decision. Your selection becomes the best; the best car or vacation for you.
Others' mileage may vary as may yours. So make a selection and share with us how it works out for you.

-tommy

[tippie53]

I think the reason is that most glues are strong enough for this job, and you have the traditionalist and the contemporary builders. There are no real studies that look at the instrument , they look at the glues strength. Engineer studies all look at the stress joints none on a tonal .
Lets face it , I don't think that any of the modern wood glues are too weak. The one issue with tite bond it creep but there have not been any real studies published on glue in instruments. We all know Hot Hide glue is used on violins forever as they are designed to be taken apart.
I hope we can come up with a good un biased study

[rienk]

I think the reason is that most glues are strong enough for this job, and you have the traditionalist and the contemporary builders.

I think this may be the main point.
My gut tells me that the type of glue used will have almost no tonal difference on the instrument. I understand that experts assert they can differentiate between certain construction choices, such as rosewood or mahogany boxes, types of finish on a guitar, or maybe even the type of wood used for a bridgeplate. But in reality probably none of these claims is based on a truly unbiased, scientific comparison. Meaning that, unless there is only one major known difference between the instruments being compared, there is no way to properly attribute the tonal differences.

Even if a proper study gets done, I wonder if there will be anything conclusive. If the difference - taking into account the standard deviation - is even measurable with machines, would it be discernible to the typical player of a custom instrument (let alone their audience)? Again, my gut tells me 'no.'

The bottom line is probably in the decision to be a traditionalist, or not.
Or simply on what each builder is comfortable using.

Personally, I'm thinking that a good middle ground might be using Fish or Liquid Hide glue.

[tippie53]

Having used most of the glues .I can say that tite bond is a "softer" glue and I have seen the creep issue from it. The Fish and Hot hide is a harder glue and will not creep. One big advantage is that the glues can be reglued easier . Tite bond must be cleaned out.
So from personal experience here is a pro and con list from my point of view

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>PRO >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> CON
tite bond
>>>>>>>>>>>> Easy to use >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>all old glue must be removed to reglue
>>>>>>>>>>>> Better at filling gaps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can creep
Available good shelf live
shorter clamp time Can slip when clamped
not as hard as some glues

Hot Hide Easy to remove glued parts Must be heated
Can reglue to itself Short shelf life
Easy clean up no creep
dries hard Must be mixed
Comes in different strengths short open time
Can be thinned for flowing into crack

Fish pretty much the same as HHG with this additional observation

Cold glue
longer work time
heating can thin this for good flow

Elemers White pretty much the same as Tite Bond but with less creep and less strength



With this being said all glues will do the job. It comes down to your building style.