dovetail necks and beginning luthiers

[phavriluk]

I don't intend to step on/hijack/divert the thread about what stumps beginners, but here's what I think is a related question:

I admit to wondering why-on-earth folks build dovetail necks when now you can buy nuts and bolts at hardware stores all around the country. Time was when that wasn't possible sometime before the Civil War and Martin figured out how to mount a neck without fasteners. That was 150 years ago. Now we have lots of fasteners available for cheap.

Except for copycatting Martin, I don't know what's being served by folks persisting in cutting dovetails, or trying to. I know Martin is trying to sell 'tradition' for as much as they can get, but what does that have to do with someone building his own guitar unless he wants to copy Martin for copying's sake?

So what's the rationale for folks making dovetails, especially beginning luthiers? It seems as if folks who engage in that spend a disproportionate amount of effort and heartache learning something that doesn't have to be learned. They haven't turned off the electricity and lit up the oil lamps to build their dovetails. And lots of them will apply lacquer finishes via rattle can.

It seems to me as if there's a whole lot of skills that need learning in lutherie before (what I think is) the black art of dovetail making.

[tippie53]

dovetails are not that hard actually in most cases I think it is over thinking. I will say that I never saw a dovetail joint fail but I have seen bolt ons fail. The worse ones are the barrel bolts. The Martin style with the brass inserts are terrible for glue shear.
Still use what you like and what works best for you.
I wish I could help everyone with the dovetail fever.

[Bon 04]

tippie53,
you have polled the group as to what is most difficult for beginning luthiers.
Overwhelmingly the response has been the God forsaken dovetail. If you find
the joint easy perhaps it is due to your 174 or so guitars you've built. The beginner
is working on maybe guitar number one or two or three and this dovetail is the downfall
of the beginner. We, as beginners, do not have 'dovetail fever' as you have stated.
That struck me as deprecating and condescending. If you are unable to bring us beginners
to a dovetail solution please do not belittle our issue. When we are asked what our issues
are and respond to the question, we assume you are able to help. If you can't help
that's OK but please don't diminish the struggles we beginners have with that dovetail.
My apologies to all for falling into a rant mode, especially in light of being the new fellow on the block.

[Bon 04]

I don't intend to step on/hijack/divert the thread about what stumps beginners, but here's what I think is a related question:

I admit to wondering why-on-earth folks build dovetail necks when now you can buy nuts and bolts at hardware stores all around the country. Time was when that wasn't possible sometime before the Civil War and Martin figured out how to mount a neck without fasteners. That was 150 years ago. Now we have lots of fasteners available for cheap.

Except for copycatting Martin, I don't know what's being served by folks persisting in cutting dovetails, or trying to. I know Martin is trying to sell 'tradition' for as much as they can get, but what does that have to do with someone building his own guitar unless he wants to copy Martin for copying's sake?

So what's the rationale for folks making dovetails, especially beginning luthiers? It seems as if folks who engage in that spend a disproportionate amount of effort and heartache learning something that doesn't have to be learned. They haven't turned off the electricity and lit up the oil lamps to build their dovetails. And lots of them will apply lacquer finishes via rattle can.

It seems to me as if there's a whole lot of skills that need learning in lutherie before (what I think is) the black art of dovetail making.

phavriluk, for what it may be worth, I fully agree with you.

[Gerry]

I've completed one kit and am starting my second build from scratch. I kit I used had a dovetail and I'm glad it did. I found the joint challenging and spent most of a day fitting it but I found it very satisfying. I hope with some experience I'll get a bit faster.

I think putting a dovetail in a guitar is like cutting dovetails in drawers for a chest. You can build a perfectly serviceable chest with other joints. Dovetailed drawers are only marginal stronger and drawers with or without dovetails rarely fail, but most furniture makers use dovetails. Amateur craftsman use dovetails because they enjoy the challenge.

I have considered using a bolt-on because of the ease of repair. I agree that the world changes and there should always be a place for new innovations I think the new joint design on Taylors is very impressive. Now if I can only figure out how to do that in a home shop. But that's another challenge.

[tippie53]

First lets say that any new skill has a learning curve for sure but when you look at the 2 joints they both need to be set, it is the connection of the neck IE dovetail or bolt on joint that makes this hard . Fact is , if you can make the heel fit the body you have the skill to make the tenon fit the mortise.
The one area that is often missed is clearing the joint so there isn't anything holding the joint from mating. This is very important on a dovetail , also the angle of the tenon is critical and this is where the chalk comes into play to help you see what is happening in the joint.

Our goal is to help in anyway we can. Don't be afraid to ask question and post pictures. Often the only difference between success and failure is knowledge . We can always help in getting you an answer.

I do understand the difficulty of the joint. Have you seen the video on the dovetail and may I ask how you do it. Also what is it that you have the most issue with.
In most cases , people try to adjust too much. Break it down to its single steps and this makes it a lot easier. Don't forget that a bolt requires the same first 2 steps.

I do teach classes and most the take the class never did one. Once they see the process it takes a lot of the fear out of the equation. So let me help you to get over this hurdle.

[Hogan's Hero]

To give a different kind of answer; The dovetail joint is considered by many to provide a much better sound than a bolt on neck. There is a reason beyond simply wanting to copy Martin for using their techniques. I don't think John's reply was flippant or condescending at all. The fact that he has completed more dovetail necks than most of us ever will is another reason to heed his advise and not be scared of the joint. If you want to use a bolt on, use it. He can help with that process as well. He has this site in order to help in any way he can, period.

Steve

[watergunn]

In John's defense.

Why in the world would someone that is seeking knowledge of a subject say that someone is being condescending to you when in fact he is only trying to help you???

This man does not "have" to help anyone at all with anything!!!

He chooses to do so because he has a passion for this just like the rest of us do.

He has a voluminous amount of info on this site and on you tube regarding dove tail joints. Do a little research like I and everyone else did when we first started.

Sure it is frustrating. I have built nineteen so far and I still run into a bump in the road in setting a dovetail sometimes.

As a matter of fact he answered a question of mine at 10:30 last night regarding another issue!

Rick Gunn

PS: Thanks for all the help John.