Unserviced kit vs scratch build

[tippie53]

I did read JJ's s post and I did not read where he said anything disparaging about kit builders . He did state that he moved on. I think people are misreading his statement. Printed word is often misinterpreted to spoken word. He is right in that with kits your limited to a degree but there are some people that do not have the space to do scratch . Martin kits have dropped in quality over the years and that is opening doors for us smaller suppliers.
We are opening the forum up to attract all builders , not just kits . After all , the only real difference is that in a kit the parts are in the box and scratch , you make the parts. We need to allow people do disagree with our own philosophies . I personally know JJ and he is a helpful guy , give him a chance. Just like Ken and others we all want to help.

[JJDonohue]

Tony...I apologize to you and others for not being as articulate as I now see I needed to be on my previous post. Of course there's nothing wrong with kits...I fully understand the space and equipment reasons. I too do thickness sanding and bending for friends...every builder I know does that, and usually pro bono. I actually have a student builder who is building from a kit that I produced in my shop while he helped with thicknessing, bending and joining. He stops by for 4 hours a week working on his guitar while he is buying tools and getting space modified at his house for future builds. He refers to his course of instruction as being in elementary school simply because it is totally new knowledge. My reference to that term was not meant to be demeaning nor disrespectful. My intentions are in the right place.

Yep, this is a very giving craft and I was lucky to have some great craftsmen give to me when I was first starting. I, as well as many other more experienced builders feel a need to give forward. It's a cherished tradition and I'm happy to hear that you also have seen and appreciate that generosity. I hope all will take my comments and actions in the same spirit.

I know your reference to Rick Davis needing to leave now was made in jest but it reminded me of an unfortunate issue that occurred on the OLF some years ago. At the time, we were fortunate to have Mario Proulx and Rick Turner as members who regularly posted and offered tremendous advice based on their varied experiences. Both have personalities and demeanors that are rather gruff and direct. They don't suffer fools well and if you have a disagreement with either, you better have done your homework and have valid evidence to back up your position. Mario in particular often railed about us needing to at least try to figure some things out for ourselves rather than expect to be spoon-fed the answers. As a result, his posts were often cryptic and contained more clues than direct answers. Well, it seemed that some of the more sensitive new builders got intimidated, took offense and felt that it was better that the forum owners enforce the "be nice" rule rather than toughen up and learn something. For some time the tensions ran hot and confrontations continued to erupt from a vocal minority more about style than content. In the end, they stopped posting and eventually left for good. It was a dark moment and one that took the best resources on the forum away. So I mention this only to emphasize that in the long run, we need more generous and experienced teachers like Rick Davis and his kind. The forum will benefit more than you can imagine.

Anyway, I wish I wouldn't be getting off to such a bad start on this forum but I feel the need to let all of you know who I really am and that I'm here to learn and help to grow with the forum. I want to be part of the community so in time, hopefully I can show people that I am sincere, passionate and serious about building, learning new things and sharing what has worked for me.

[Darryl Young]

Anyway, I wish I wouldn't be getting off to such a bad start on this forum but I feel the need to let all of you know who I really am and that I'm here to learn and help to grow with the forum. I want to be part of the community so in time, hopefully I can show people that I am sincere, passionate and serious about building, learning new things and sharing what has worked for me.

JJ, thanks for hanging around and trying to keep us pointing in the right direction. I've already learned a lot from you. I think John is right that it's easy to misunderstand an internet post........you don't have the benefit of tone of voice or body language that often communicates as much as the spoken work. With that in mind, it's best not to get too jumpy.

One other benefit of buying a kit from someone like John. I wanted a particular sound in the guitar I was building (the old Martin sound bluegrass players like so much). I bought a custom kit from John and described the sound I was wanting and John made suggestions for changing the bracing etc. to get that sound. I learned a lot from John just by studying the tweaks he made to my kit.......and I that knowledge was passed on to me for free with the purchase of a kit. How much is that worth? John has built 100+ guitars and I haven't yet finished my first. John is an expert on old Martins and their designs and differences. This was eye opening for anyone who observes and pays attention.

[tippie53]

Glad to see real communication happening. Learning costs , you either learn from the mistake or pay a teacher. We can all learn from each other. Thanks all that participate as it would be hard to learn from just a few. there are many ways and techniques used in this craft.
I learned something here that I must be honest about . I as a kit and tooling provider overlooked that many have space issues and need kits. I made the assumptions that most will go to scratch building . I want to thank you for opening my eyes and make me a better provider . I am sure Ken has even learned a few things.
Thanks for you support .

PS One thing I must pass on , for best results , keep the strings on the outside

[Ken Hundley]

I too started as a kit builder, and have moved on to building from scratch for a number of reasons. I have found a local source for some fairly exotic woods. I enjoy hunting for the perfect plank, getting it resawn to my specs (I can't resaw....small band saw) then planing or thickness sanding (on a home built sander) to my own final specs. When I work it out, not counting the value of my time, I can get wood a lot cheaper than with a kit. I can also make sure everything is exactly the way I want it. I can design my own neck/neck woods, which may not be as easy as with a kit, though the it necks, so far, has proven better made than mine.

That being said, if someone came up to me and asked me to build them a D28 clone, I would probably call one of the guys here up and get a kit....the time savings would be worth the difference in cost between what I could buy and what I could make.

I think I just also have a fascination with making things, though its been frustrated lately due to like of time. If I can make it myself, why should I buy it? As exciting as it is to open a kit when it first shows up and get it going, the fun for me is in the making. The more ownership I can take in the manufacturing side of things the better, unless I am under a deadline that will be tough to beat if I have to make my own parts.

Does that make me a more advanced builder? Probably not, especially since the quality of my scratch build isn't quite there with the kit supplies, as in necks, joining plates, and things of that nature. But as I said, for me the fun is in the making. I can make parts all winter long where I can't glue or finish, so I find it a better use of my time. Besides....it's good training for when I start building my boat.....;)

[JJDonohue]

PS One thing I must pass on , for best results , keep the strings on the outside

I happen to know you learned that from your wife! <grin>

[deadedith]

A big dose of humility would be good for each of us :-) Nothing makes for better communication.
I hope we do not devolve into a 'kit builder' vs 'scratch builder' forum. Some have no desire (or space or tools or time) to do scratch work; I'm sure I am not alone in this, and that is why I joined a KIT guitar forum. I don't see scratch work as 'moving up' - it is one way among others to end up with an instrument - I'm happy for those that find their sense of fulfillment in it, and I'm even happier when we all show humility in answering kit-related questions and humility in listening to others - let's face it, everyone on the Forum is better than us in some way !
Dave B

[Woody OKeefe]

Hi Guys,

The only reason my first guitar was ever completed is because of this forum and the people who make it work. One thing that has not been mentioned is that there are people like me to whom this is a hobby and will remain a hobby. There are many techniques that need to be perfected especially in finishing. Kit suppliers and people who can perform luthier services will always be my first source. Of course now that I've said that, I have purchased a cnc neck and need to shape and register the fingerboard. So even an unserviced kit would be my choice. This is still the best forum for me.

[naccoachbob]

PS One thing I must pass on , for best results , keep the strings on the outside

John, are you sure about that?
I'm looking at my build here, and........................... uh oh.

[johnnparchem]

I really appreciate both the experienced builders (kit\ scratch\professional) and the inexperienced builders on this forum. The inexperience builders (of which I am a one) have saved me by asking questions for which I didn’t even know I needed answers. The replies from the experienced builders, although at time seemly conflicting, have given me a range of knowledge that I have applied to my builds.
Interesting enough I think I spent more time on the 90% finished saga les paul style electric kit than I spent on my classical build. I am coming to learn that the different stages of a guitar build are each arts in themselves that can totally consume ones interest: Tone wood forestry, tool making, design, engineering, carving, construction, finishing , setup and repair. From my reading of the guitar forums most of the builders really work across a sub set of the skills (albeit some a broader and deeper set than others ) required to have a finished guitar ready to play.
In short, I do not believe there is a concept of moving up, just the acquisition and development of skills relating to ones particular passion.