Hide glue parameters

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Rds 1st run
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Joined: Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:04 am
Location: Illinois

Hide glue parameters

Post by Rds 1st run »

I have not started yet, but trying to understand Hide glue. Are there differences in tack/dry time between manufactures. What is the right working temperature and working time of? Should it be used for a full build or is there parts that should use different?
It will be the first acoustic build for me, I would just like to make it the best it can be with my abilities and advise/suggestions as possible.
Basically, what is the full run down on how and when to use Hide glue. I know I'm not asking for much!!! But it would be great info for me.
If there is an old post on this I would welcome a link.
Thanks
Rick.
tippie53
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Re: Hide glue parameters

Post by tippie53 »

Hot Hide glue I use the hide glue pot.. You want to be around 145F.Hot Hide glue is not a miracle glue and there is a learning curve. It comes in different gram strengths . The higher the number the thicker the glue. As far as strength goes even 192 will tear wood apart.
The most important thing is learning to be efficient in your movement. Also be pristine in the joint mating.
John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
president of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com
Morecowbell
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Location: Fishers, IN

Re: Hide glue parameters

Post by Morecowbell »

Rds,

As a lifelong Titebond user I was interested in trying hide glue. There's a bit of a learning curve but I've really liked using it and will continue.

I used hot hide glue, which is glue granules plus water plus heat (about 140 F) to get you to a honey type consistency. Depending on your circumstances I felt like I had about 30-40 seconds of working time before it starts to gel as it cools. Open time can be lengthened by adding ambient heat, urea or salt, which I did and it worked very well to get to 1-2 minute working times. If you add enough urea you can get a product that is liquid at room temperature, or mostly so - this is how you get Franklin's Hide Glue. If you are interested in this approach I would suggest Old Brown Glue which is a dated product made by a period furniture restorer, you can find it online. Another room temperature option is fish glue (which John sells). I uses this on my bindings because of the open time and faster tack.

192 & 251 are typical gram weights for guitar building. I used 192 for most things and 251 for my bridge. IIRC there is only one manufacturer left in the US, the source I used was Bjorn's Hide Glue. The owner has apparently forgotten more than we will ever know about hide glue so it's a site worth visiting.

For a general introduction this is a good contemporary overview:

Hide Glue in the Modern Workshop - James Russel
https://emgw.org/resources/Documents/Me ... rkshop.pdf

And then of course, how does it stack up and why would you use it?

Fine Woodworking Glue Test:
https://www.finewoodworking.com/members ... 192036.pdf

I think I have some more resources from my travels, will poke around. But if it sounds interesting I would encourage you to try using it. It cleans up really easily, sands beautifully, and of course if you make a mistake you just grab a hairdryer and you're ready for another try in a few minutes.
Last edited by Morecowbell on Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Facts seldom sway an opinion." - John Hall
"The difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference." - Van de Snepscheut
Morecowbell
Posts: 284
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Location: Fishers, IN

Re: Hide glue parameters

Post by Morecowbell »

Bjorn Hide Glue website: https://bjornhideglue.com/
"Facts seldom sway an opinion." - John Hall
"The difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference." - Van de Snepscheut
Morecowbell
Posts: 284
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Location: Fishers, IN

Re: Hide glue parameters

Post by Morecowbell »

Some more info attached:
PatEdwards_Spring15_Hide Glue Article.pdf
Hide Glue Technical.pdf
Hide glue questions with Jay Utzig.docx
Hide glue mixing instructions from Bjorn.docx
Animal_glues_a_review_of_their_key_properties.pdf
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Last edited by Morecowbell on Wed Feb 15, 2023 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Facts seldom sway an opinion." - John Hall
"The difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference." - Van de Snepscheut
Morecowbell
Posts: 284
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:51 am
Location: Fishers, IN

Re: Hide glue parameters

Post by Morecowbell »

And one more....
Why_not_period_glue.pdf
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"Facts seldom sway an opinion." - John Hall
"The difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference." - Van de Snepscheut
Diane Kauffmds
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Re: Hide glue parameters

Post by Diane Kauffmds »

I don't have a hot hide glue pot. I use a hot wax pot, used by beauticians for waxing. Iike mine, because it maintains a very stable temperature and is temp adjustable. I use digital thermometer to check the temp. I fill the wax pot with water, then make the glue in a small jar.

If you're interested, this is the pot that I use. Click on buying optIons.

I bought this 4 years ago and it's still going strong.


Salon Sundry Professional Single Pot Electric Wax Warmer Machine for Hair Removal or Paraffin https://a.co/d/0sgtBEB
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Diane Kauffmann
Country Roads Guitars
countryroadsguitars@gmail.com
MaineGeezer
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Re: Hide glue parameters

Post by MaineGeezer »

It takes practice to get the feel of using it. For heating it, I use what may have been an electric fondue pot. I put water in the pot, then set a stainless steel cup that has the glue in it in the water. When I first started using HHG, I didn't mix the glue with enough water so my working time was about 10 seconds. I eventually learned that I could add quite a bit more water and still have sufficient strength with a decent working time. A few test joints with varying amounts of water will tell you a lot.
I found that 192 gram strength glue was not strong enough to reliably glue a bridge, so I switched to 251 for gluing the bridge and haven't had any more trouble.
For gluing most everything else, I use fish glue.
Don't believe everything you know.
Anything is possible if you don't know what you are talking about.
When things are bad, try not to make them any worse, because it is quite likely they are bad enough already. - French Foreign Legion
Diane Kauffmds
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Re: Hide glue parameters

Post by Diane Kauffmds »

I use 251 gram too. It's a bit of a learning curve, but not too hard. I don't move very fast, so I've learned to reheat the area that I've glued with a heatgun. You can use a hairdryer too. My heatgun has a thermostat, so I set it at 350 degrees. I slowly heat the bridge, bracing, or whatever I've glued. You want to protect the finish by placing something over it, like a piece of cardboard or cloth. After reheating, you'll see squeeze out starting, which is a good thing.

I've never had a failure when I reheat and reheating allows more working time.
Diane Kauffmann
Country Roads Guitars
countryroadsguitars@gmail.com
JLT
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Location: Sacramento, CA USA

Re: Hide glue parameters

Post by JLT »

Not that you need another resource, but you might find this write-up interesting:

http://frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Tec ... glue1.html

Frank Ford's web site is invaluable for any luthier, and believe me, you can get lost in it and before you know it, an hour or two of your life is gone. Be warned.
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