Twelve Strings?

[Herman]

Jim and Tony,
Seems my perception of the hard to play twelve stringers could be right. Probably I need to eat more bacon and beef to strenghten a bit. Or sticking to the 6 stringers.

[deadedith]

When I was stationed in the Philippines, which really has no bearing on this whole thing, I had a friend who played a 12 string Fender that was as easy to play as any 6 string - for strumming and flat picking anyway - it had a fairly narrow neck; since my friend did not have large hands this worked well for him. The model name was Shenandoah, or Calistoga, something mountainy or outdoorsy anyway.
If you could get the specs for that instrument you might end up with a nice easy-playing 12'er.

[Herman]

hmm , intersting. I'll dive into that.

[Darryl Young]

Jim, another option is to add a PMTE brace. It's a hardwood brace that runs along the back of the bridge plate between the X brace arms. It glues to the plate/top and to each arm of the X brace. Use a good tonewood like rosewood or Bodark etc. It can add a lot of stiffness to this area........and the height and width of the material used will determine the stiffness you add. 1/4" wide by 3/8" - 5/8" tall would suffice I'm guessing and you can leave it full height in the middle and taper the height down where it glues to the X brace arms. Use a flat brace if there is a lot of belly you want to remove (instead of a radiused brace) and clamp it completely flat while glueing (of course with no string tension).

[Freeman]

Jim, I have built two and own an old Martin D12-28 (which I don't care for that much which is why I built the OM). I've done build threads on the old forum - search for "freeman"





My three guitars are actually very different.

1- the 1980 D12-28 is Martins normal unscalloped 5/16 bracing and the same top thickness as my D18 (0.110). It is short scale, I usually tune it two semi tones down. It has had a neck reset, bridge reglued, and a smaller bridge plate. It is a typically boomy Martin dread, the mids are weak and the body feels huge. It sits in its case in the closet.

2 - the OM 12 was a kit of parts from John Hall. It is a martin short scale neck (next time I would make it 25.4), deep OM sized body with a 0.110 top plate, 5/16 unscalloped braces and third tone bar. I string it medium and down tune two semi tones. It is a much better finger picker - balanced across the courses and much easier to get my arms around. I spent a lot of time compensating each string of each course - it actually plays in tune up the neck. It is my go to 12'er

3 the slot head 000 is a copy of an old Stella - very long scale (26.5), ladder braced, 0.125 top, deep 000 body, 12 frets clear. Obviously it is a tail piece guitar which changes a lot of the dynamics. The neck is huge and chunky (those old blues guys mush have had huge hands). I string it with cables and tune in the cellar - right now it is C to C, sometimes I go down for the equivalent of open G or D. I have tried a few funky stringing configurations (unison 3rd course, double octave on the 6th course ala Ledbelly). This guitar is a monster - big thumping driving woody tone that is at home playing Willie McTell/Ledbelly. If you like Paul Geremia or Alvin Youngblood Hart you'll know the sound. I don't play it much, but when you need that sound....

The Stella clone has a lot in common with some of the new 12's that are designed for down tuning - the Taylor LKSM, the Martin Seeger model, Fraulini's. Each has a different sound, but they are all intended to be tuned to C or below.

I have strong opinions about 12 strings and cannot understand the love of dreads. If I could only have one, it would either be a small bodied (OM/000) medium scale (25.4) with X bracing and three tone bars for fingerstyle or a jumbo or slope shouldered dread for strumming. I happen to have a set of plans for a jumbo with I believe is basically a copy of an x55 Taylor - that would be a good place to start for an all arounder. If you want to tune down, a LKSM or ladder braced one like mine.

Let me know if you would like other information - I do have lots of notes as well as the build threads. Best to e-mail me, I don't come around this forum much any more freemanDOTkellerAThotmailDOTcom

[Freeman]

Jim and Tony,
Seems my perception of the hard to play twelve stringers could be right. Probably I need to eat more bacon and beef to strenghten a bit. Or sticking to the 6 stringers.

Depending on strings and tuning, most 12's have about 50 percent more tension than a sixer (240 pounds or so). Shorter scale and/or down tuning can make them more playable. They typically have slightly wider nuts (1-7/8) and saddle spacing (2-1/4). I use very similar setups to my standard fingerstyle specs - most people find mine very easy to play. I also take the time to compensate each string so they play in tune up the neck and because I play a lot of slide I do a couple of little tweaks on string height. But in my humble opinion, a well set up twelve should be easy to play.

[Jim_H]

WOW! Thank you Freeman. I was hoping you'd pop in here. I remembered your build threads from the old boards but couldn't remember the details. This is exactly the kind of info I was looking for.

My hope would be to build a 12 string that could be comfortably tuned to standard E to e tuning.

Is the neck on your OM pretty much a standard Martin profile? One the things that makes my Takamine nearly impossible to play is the aircraft carrier they bolted on for a neck.

Also, what did you do for the truss rod, and any additional neck re-enforcement?

[Freeman]

WOW! Thank you Freeman. I was hoping you'd pop in here. I remembered your build threads from the old boards but couldn't remember the details. This is exactly the kind of info I was looking for.

My hope would be to build a 12 string that could be comfortably tuned to standard E to e tuning.

Is the neck on your OM pretty much a standard Martin profile? One the things that makes my Takamine nearly impossible to play is the aircraft carrier they bolted on for a neck.

Also, what did you do for the truss rod, and any additional neck re-enforcement?

I was going to jump back in and edit the last post - I'll do that here before I answer your specific questions.

First I believe that like any guitar, body size, shape and materials sets the overall sound. A dread will be boomy and biased towards the bass - if you want pure strumming or flatpicking thats the choice. An OM/000 is a finger picker - balanced, responsive, my choice obviously. A jumbo is the compromise - does everything well. Taylor's and Guild's best 12's are their jumbos, Martin's new Grand J has a great reputation.

I also happen to agree with Kottke who says that mahogany is the better tone wood for a 12 (even tho mine are rose). A 12 is so complex to start with that you don't need to add a lot of overtones and color. A 12 is also one place that I would consider maple. Strong wood for the top and braces - I used adi for the Stella clone.


Second, scale length is a function of tuning (basically, as you tune down you want a longer scale and probably bigger strings). For concert, short Martin scale (24.9) and lights (10-46). For D (which is what many 12 string players prefer), 25.4 and mediums (12-54). For the Leo Kottke growl (C or C#) 26 or so and "heavies" (13-56), and if you want to emulate Ledbelly and Pete Seeger, 27 inch and strings in the 14 to 16-60 range.

The neck on my OM is a short scale Martin from their production line (John scored that for me). It would be exactly what you would get on a modern D12-28. I am using a standard double acting truss rod (adjuster inside the body) and a standard martin fretboard. Mine is 1-7/8 at the nut, 16 inch radius. It is a dovetail but I don't happen to believe that the neck joint or the truss rods are the week spots (my old D12-28 has a non adjustable t/r and after 40 years the relief is 0.008, it did have a reset but then so did my 40 year old D18).

Guilds are noted for having chunky necks - and they have two truss rods, but still dovetail necks. Taylors have thin necks, one truss rod and their NT bolt on. The old Stellas had non adjustable t/r's and were dovetail, I made mine with a double acting rod and bolt on. Interestly, I just did a set up on it this weekend - with no strings on it has zero relief, strung up it has 0.005. I wouldn't worry about the neck if you build well.

Top and bracing is another matter - in my opinion you should bump the thickness a hair (lets say 10%) and increase the braces a bit - taller or wider, whatever you like. Taylor and Martin do not scallop (actually the LKSM has very fat braces that are deeply scalloped). I think adding a third tone bar is a good idea, particularly on a jumbo or dread. Your bridge plate should be a little bigger than normal but I wouldn't go overboard with it. The are two ways to do the pins - either with the primaries next to the saddle (Taylor, Martin Grand J) or the octaves (other Martins, Guilds I think). The first makes more sense from a theoretical standpoint but if you use a martin bridge (again, from John) you might not have a choice.

Just my $0.02 - lots of different ways to skin this cat. Good luck with your build.


http://www.kitguitarsforum.com/archives ... 45_0_9_0_C

http://www.kitguitarsforum.com/archives ... 61_0_6_0_C

http://www.kitguitarsforum.com/archives ... 14_0_9_0_C

http://bigroadblues.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=10985

btw - I made a drilling jig for the tuner holes based on the Martin spacing using a cnc milling machine. You are welcome to use it if you do a paddle head. The spacing is much tighter than standard - you'll want to use some mini tuners.