Staining

[Ben-Had]

Ok, never stained before. So:

1. how do you stain B/S without bleeding onto top?
2. Do you stain before or after pore filling?
3. Do you tint pore filler and stain with it?
4. Bind before or after staining/pore filling?

Thanks so much for your help my other build have been unbound and natural wood colors.

Tim B

[Ben-Had]

Sorry for the bump BUT, can ANYBODY help me out with these questions. Someone on here must have some answers. Thanks.

Tim B

[naccoachbob]

Tim, for #1, I've never stained, but because I used a rosewood rosette and rosewood sides with bloodwood binding, the sanding of those woods caused me some problems with the top.
I was advised to seal the top before doing that sanding, so that the top would not absorb the colored woods. It worked well, plus I used a razor after that whenever the colored dust got on the top.

On #2, I would think that pore filling first would be appropriate so that both the filler and the wood would get the same treatment.
On #3, no idea at all.
#4, I would think that trying to bind after staining and all would be harder. Not sure what would happen to the gluing surfaces.

My experience is limited, but I'm using the best logic I can.
Hopefully the pro's here and more experienced guys will dissect what I've said and give good answers for you.
Sorry to not be more help, but best of luck on it.
Bob

[darren]

a recent thread discussed binding and porefilling and the consensus was that porefilling is part of the finishing process and should come much later than installing the bindings. (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=547&hilit=pore+fill )

I've seen John Hall post the typical martin porefill/stain/finish procedure, a search here or at the archives might find it...
(viewtopic.php?f=6&t=389&hilit=stain )

edited to add page links..........;)

[Ken C]

Tim, I haven't been on much lately or I would have replied earlier. Below are my two cents.

1. how do you stain B/S without bleeding onto top?
A. As noted above, seal the top with lacquer or shellac after you get your rosette done. This will protect the top from sawdust from darker woods as well as stain.

2. Do you stain before or after pore filling?
A. Depends on the pore fill. If I am using something like Pore O Pac, I'll stain after pore filling. If I am using Target's HSF5100 clear pore filler, I'll stain prior to pore filling. If I were using the latter, I'd stain, then seal with a couple of coats of lacquer prior to pore filling. The lacquer will help protect the stain while you are leveling the pore fill.

3. Do you tint pore filler and stain with it?
A. I will tint pore filler, but I don't use that as a stain. I typically tint pore fill when I want the filled voids to be a different color than the surrounding wood. This can add depth to the finish.

4. Bind before or after staining/pore filling?
A. I would bind first. If you don't, you will really risk sanding through the stain as you level the bindings. If you are concerned about getting stain on your purflings or bindings, you can seal them with a couple of coats of lacquer prior to pore filling or staining. Don't rely on masking tape or you will be disappointed. The stain easily wicks its way under masking tape. Once you are done pore filling and staining, use a razor blade as a scraper and clean up the purfling lines.

A few other thoughts:
- Some stains go on very evenly, others can go on blotchy, depending on the wood. A wood conditioner can help. You can also try swabbing the wood surface first with water or denatured alcohol, depending on the stain you are using. This will slow down how quickly the wood absorbs the stain, allowing you to more evenly stain the surface and control how deep you want the stain. Water and water based stains will raise the grain. If I am using a water based stain, I'll swab the surface with water, allow to dry, sand, then repeat. This will help keep the grain down when staining. You really don't want to sand after you have stained. Be careful using DNA as it could soften the pore filler you have used.
- If are mixing stains or tinting stains, be sure to keep some of the mixture around until you are done finishing just in case you sand through.

I don't stain a lot as I try to use woods with the color properties I am after. But sometimes, you just have to stain! Below is a mahogany headstock pore filled with tinted pore pac and later the entire surface was stained. Prior to pore filling I sealed the maple purfling lines with a couple of coats of lacquer. Once done, I cleaned the purflings with a razor blade.

Good luck!

Ken

IMGP9914.jpg

[Ben-Had]

OK, here’s what I’ve typically done and the point I’m at so far;

1. Spruce top (Rosette installed) - Sand 100, sand 150, wet the top then dry, sand again w/150, wet the top then dry, sand 220, wet the top then dry, sand again w/220, wet the top then dry, sand 320.
2. Seal the top with lacquer.
3. African Mahogany B/S - Then I sand the B/S same as the top (this is where I'm at right now).
4. Then I pore fill B/S (neck too) using System 123 epoxy (clear), sand w/240 after it dries overnight and finish spraying, sanding, buffing the finish.

I have never bound or stained any of my builds and on this one I want to bind it and stain it to get that Martin/Gibson deep brown on the mahogany B/S (neck).

So, I’m trying to figure out where to fit in the binding and staining with the above. So from reading what you guys have told me I think my process should be something like this (and please tell me if I’m off base) After #3 above;

4. Binding
5. Seal with lacquer (would I just brush on over the binding or spray a coat on the guitar? I guess this confuses me because how can you stain after sealing?)
6. Stain
7. Seal w/lacquer
8. Pore Fill/sand
9. Finish as above

Or would it be;

4. Binding
5. Seal with lacquer
6. Pore Fill/sand
7. Stain
8. Finish as above

Thank you guys SO much for your help, I really, REALLY, want to get this right.

Tim B

PS - this is a pic of my last guitar (notice NO binding, NO staining, SOUNDS GREAT).

[Tony_in_NYC]

Use a small applicator to seal the bindings with lacquer reduced with lacquer thinner. Use a razor blade to get any sealer off of the back and sides. Make sure you seal the entire top thoroughly! Stain and pore fill. Do the rest of your finishing.

Hope this fills in the last bit of missing info!

Tony

[Ben-Had]

Use a small applicator to seal the bindings with lacquer reduced with lacquer thinner. Use a razor blade to get any sealer off of the back and sides. Make sure you seal the entire top thoroughly! Stain and pore fill. Do the rest of your finishing.

Hope this fills in the last bit of missing info!

Tony

Excellent Tony, thanks for your two cents:)

[Tony_in_NYC]

My bag of pennies strikes again!
No problem.

[kencierp]

Since I would never use an Epoxy of any kind as a filler I won't have much to add to this post -- I will mention that spraying the soundboard with "water" over and over is just not a good idea -- I don't do it at all -- one spritz to stack the grain might accomplish a little something. But generally -- dried wood and straight water are not friends. $.02