Timbermate wood filler

[Darryl Young]

Looking good Tony! How long did it take to dry and how long did you wait before sanding? Was all the wood horizontal when it was applied? Just curious how it would do on sides where some of the wood is vertical during application.

[naccoachbob]

Tony, how many times did you have to fill to complete it?

[Tony_in_NYC]

Bob,

It took two coats to fill, but only because I didnt carefully follow instructions. I used 100 grit paper to sand off the excess after it dried and on the website, it says to use 120 or above. So I caused some scratches in the filler with my low grit paper. If I had used 150 grit it probably would have taken one coat. It sands like a dream by the way. Very easy to remove the excess. And spills clean up with water even when dry.

Darryl,

This stuff is very thick in the can. You can thin it as much or as little as you want for different applications. I made it like paint the first test I did that I forgot to put sanding sealer on. For test two, I made it like toothpaste. Both consistencies worked well and did not drip.
I did not have the wood on the table while filling. I held it in my hand so I could turn it around as I worked.
It dried in minutes and if you are impatient, you can use a heat gun or hair dryer to speed it up. I just waved the wood in the air and it was dry pretty fast. But it is not supposed to shrink or crack even if you use heat. There are some videos on youtube from the manufacturer, but I did not find them helpful.

For the record, I ordered some z-poxy today to test as well. I will post those pics when I am done with that test. I will do a side by side with Timbermate and we can all judge for ourselves.
I hope you guys found this helpful.

[deadedith]

Good comparisons in controlled situations are always a huge help. You're providing a good service, Tony.
DaveB

[kencierp]

The Timbermate uses much too much water for me to ever consider -- but I fully understand the quest for a more speedy pore filling process. However, based on this experiment so far --- I would like to point out that normally for a high quality finish, the wood should be sanded with a minimum of 220 grit, many including myself use a progression through 320 grit. From that point on, a lower number grit never touches the surface, as a matter of fact I am inclined to use 400g for all further clean up and leveling. What I am reading here is that 100g and/or 120g is being used to knock off the Timbermate excess -- doing that scracthes the dog crap out of the wood -- these scrathes must be removed "OR THEY WILL SHOW" --- so progressive sanding has to be done to get the scratches out --- here's the problem -- in all likelyhood most, if not all the filler will be removed in the process of getting the surface suitable for a high gloss surface taking you back to square one. $.02

[Tarhead]

I wonder how different this stuff is from tinted drywall mud?

[Tony_in_NYC]

The Timbermate uses much too much water for me to ever consider -- but I fully understand the quest for a more speedy pore filling process. However, based on this experiment so far --- I would like to point out that normally for a high quality finish, the wood should be sanded with a minimum of 220 grit, many including myself use a progression through 320 grit. From that point on, a lower number grit never touches the surface, as a matter of fact I am inclined to use 400g for all further clean up and leveling. What I am reading here is that 100g and/or 120g is being used to knock off the Timbermate excess -- doing that scracthes the dog crap out of the wood -- these scrathes must be removed "OR THEY WILL SHOW" --- so progressive sanding has to be done to get the scratches out --- here's the problem -- in all likelyhood most, if not all the filler will be removed in the process of getting the surface suitable for a high gloss surface taking you back to square one. $.02

Ken,
I must respectfully disagree with your assessment of Timbermate and the process for using it. I do agree that you need to run the grits up to 320 or higher for a good finish. The problem is, unlike when I am actually working on a guitar, I did not do my research on how to use the product. Their instructions say something about not using lower than 120 grit paper, and that 220 is better for removing the excess. I would quote them, but I never bothered to fully read them. Again, my mistake and as a result, I probably made their product look bad. I cant make myself look bad because everyone around here pretty much knows that I am incompetent. I just figured it would be faster if I used some 100grit paper that I had nearby when it was time to sand.
I have never pore filled, so I did not know anything about the process. Once I finished my "tests" I realized that it would have been a better test if I had sanded the test pieces to 320, pore filled, and then used 320 again to remove the excess and preserve the smooth finish you worked towards on your guitar. Unfortunately, I did more research AFTER I used it, than before using it!! Kind of dumb, but I was only working on scraps so in the end, it was a learning experience all around.
My process was flawed, not the Timbermate. I still ended up with decent results, but I should definitely repeat this test with a better process. The scraps I used had not even seen sandpaper before I applied the Timbermate. They were raw wood cut offs from the back plate. Big mistake. However, sanding with the 100 grit paper I used ended up not being a major problem since it was only a test and not my actual guitar that I was messing up! There are visible scratches under my lacquer, but again, I am to blame, not the TM (Timbermate). Knowing what I learned from these tests, I will sand up to 320 before pore filling in the future. Once I sat and thought about it, it makes sense to do so. If not, like Ken Cierp said, you run the risk of sanding off all of the pore filler, and then the only thing I have done is to waste a huge amount of time. Prior to these tests, I thought nothing about it and though that final sanding happened while you were leveling the pore filler. Yes..sometimes I am dumb. OK...often times.
As far as the amount of water in the product when you are using it, it is not "wet" like you may be thinking. Out of the jar, it is very thick and dry. Too thick to use in my opinion. I only added a couple of drops of water to a thimble full of TM and that was sufficient to thin it for application. The amount of water in the TM was not even enough to raise the grain, which some people do intentionally before finishing to knock down any little hairs that may rise up.
In hind site, I made many mistakes during these experiments. Mostly because I was in a hurry to get them done. I have limited building time in the evenings, so I did not want to "waste" it, fooling around with pore filling scraps. The reality is, learning how to pore fill on scraps is not a waste of time at all since it will save me a lot of time later when I am doing this for real on a guitar that I have spent 60-75 hours building.
I am going to re-do these tests on some new wood. Unfortunately, I do not have enough large pieces of the walnut to do that, so I am going to see if I can get my hands on some oak scraps from a local cabinet maker. Oak has larger pores than walnut anyway so it will be a tougher test subject than walnut.
In conclusion, I am still satisfied with Timbermate as a filler, but I really feel I need to do a proper test of the stuff and use it exactly like I will be using it in real life on a real guitar body. That means sanding my scraps to 320 or 400, filling and then using the same 320 or 400 grit to knock down the pore filler. Sorry for messing this test up fellas. I got ahead of myself because I was in a rush to test it and I am not even close to the pore filling stage yet!!

Tarhead, I couldnt say since I never tried drywall compound as a pore filler, but I have used it on drywall and that stuff DOES shrink. Timbermate is not supposed to shrink, and it did not on my test pieces. It does not smell like drywall compound but does look like it when you use the natural colored base. It actually has an odd smell. More like a petroleum product than a water based one. Not a very strong smell, but it is there.

Again, I want to apologize to everyone for doing a crappy test as far as my process was concerned, but I did get good results never the less, so that might speak to the ease of use of this stuff. Even I can not totally mess it up! New test to come. Hopefully soon.

[Tarhead]

Geez Tony!
Lighten up on yourself! We appreciate what you're doing and 99% of us here are on the steep part of the learning curve as far as getting that kind of finish. Any mistakes you make are free learning for us. Keep plugging those pores!

[Tony_in_NYC]

Thanks guys. I am having a very bad day so I was hard on myself, but your comments helped.
One of the reasons I was hard on myself is that I am putting bad info out there which is not helpful to anyone! At least I was able to correct the info quickly.
I got an email from a member who asked me if I had samples of some other fillers to try. I do not, but if anyone knows where I can order some small samples of the different fillers, I would be more than happy to test the ones I can get my hands on. I have some walnut flooring at home that is left over from a home improvement project. I can sacrifice a couple of BF of that to do some tests.
Funny thing...I was really not looking forward to testing the timbermate in the first place because I just wanted to do it on my guitar and get it over with. After doing the tests, I am interested in seeing how the different products work and how they make the wood look nd I want to do more tests!! Another member here did some tests on Koa with three different fillers and reported that Z-poxy was the best in his opinion, but he never got around to polishing the scraps and posting pics. Maybe this will light a fire under his tookus. Sorry for not remembering who it was, but I cant remember anything the last few days. No sleep.

[naccoachbob]

Bro, don't be so hard on yourself. You're just a typical guy who doesn't read the directions until he has to figure out what he did wrong! I highly resemble that myself!!

+1 on mmapags and Tarhead's comments.
Tony, I got your 6 o'clock on this one too. I've got both rosewood and clear coming. I won't use them on this guitar but will test them on some scrap too. We can compare notes.
I thought instructions and such were what you stuffed into the guitar to keep from spraying the inside of the back.