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Re: First Fret Distance

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:40 am
by darren
deadedith wrote:I've had to compensate for mine for years. :-)

How does one come up with an amount to remove?
by listening to what others who have completed significantly more guitars have to say on the issue.

I will say I hit the 1.5mm dim completely by accident... slotted my FB and found the end wasn't square... >:( knew I had read something about shortening the first fret distance... it all went from there. I agree that number is too high, and dialed it back to 1mm nut compensation for the one I have currently under construction.

Re: First Fret Distance

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:28 am
by deadedith
"by listening to what others who have completed significantly more guitars have to say on the issue."

Of course; but even 'they' don't agree with one another on the amount to be removed - there must be a REASON based on a formula, or a formula derived after many builds, that can be a guide. A number that all agree on, since it's not a method that I'm looking for, but a fact..

Plus let's face it - those who have built the most guitars are the ones who have the trouble with one another's approaches, as anyone who has followed this forum for long can well attest. :-) Not saying it's a bad thing, but it is a fact.

I will do some research and try to find out HOW the correct amount to be removed is determined and used on a repeatable basis, unless someone here has the information. Hopefully someone does. :-)

Re: First Fret Distance

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:34 pm
by darren
deadedith wrote:
Of course; but even 'they' don't agree with one another on the amount to be removed
Or where to locate the bridge now that the nut has been moved!

:)

I hear ya. Think I'll just do multi-scale on everything from here out. !!!

Re: First Fret Distance

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:08 pm
by Ben-Had
Throw 3 numbers that are close into a hat and pull one out. No, you say?

Re: First Fret Distance

Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:10 pm
by deadedith
Or maybe just go fretless!!

Re: First Fret Distance

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:12 pm
by Herman
Dave, for me there is a formula. The distance between the nut and the 1st fret is about 35 mm. I noticed on a few of my guitars the with a proper intonation on the 12th fret, that the 1st and 2nd fretted notes were about 2 cents sharp. That brought me to the conclusion (with the Feiten theory in mind) that the fretboard shound be 2 percent of the first distance shorter. That makes my 0.7mm.

Tell me if I am wrong, please.

Herman

Re: First Fret Distance

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:19 pm
by deadedith
Thanks Herman. I was going to say it makes 'cents' to me but that is too obvious a pun. :-)

It seems you have had very good success with that formula, and like they say, you can't argue with success. I will stick your formula in my back pocket and pull it out when my next project gets to that point.

Thanks
Dave

Re: First Fret Distance

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 12:50 pm
by Herman
Too much honor. Do not call it very good succes. I just think it helps a bit with the intonation, because it depends on so many things, as strings, playing technique, hard or soft touch etcetera.

FWIW: A friend pro-luthier nearby does the setup for Stevie Vai's "Flo" when he is in Holland. I would say, that makes him qualified.
I discussed this nut-intonation-issue with him before, and he told me he also takes a bit of his fretboards too. I can't recall now exactly how much, but it is about in range I use.

Re: First Fret Distance

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:33 pm
by Ben-Had
Am I missing something here? If you move the nut closer to the 1st fret doesn't that also move it closer at the 12th? Which means the open tuning changes and when you re-tune you're right back where you started!

Re: First Fret Distance

Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:20 pm
by Tim R
The assumption is that there is good intonation among the fretted notes. If I understand it correctly, you would tune using a tuner at, say, the second fret position. So, the fretted notes would be on pitch. The nut compensation adjusts for the fact that, if the fretted notes are on pitch, the unfretted notes will be flat.

Tim