HHG, fish, titebond?

[Phil]

I've been away from building for the last year or so but I am planning out my next build. I have been doing some reading on different types of glues. So far I have only used Titebond 1. I've been reading about using hot hide, liquid hide, and fish glues. In regards to the liquid hide and fish glues there seems to be a variety of opinions on the web about durability. For example I've read things saying not to use fish glue, and I've seen others that use it and swear by the results. I guess what I am trying to figure out, is should I try out something new like fish glue on my next build? I find the short open time of hot hide glue intimidating, but should I learn how to use hot hide? Or should I just stick with Titebond since I'm used to it?

What types of glue are you using and why?

[JLT]

What types of glue are you using and why?

I've been using fish glue for my last couple of builds. The main gripes I've heard about it are the same grips I've heard about hot hide glue ... when you get a lot of heat and humidity, the joints weaken and fail. And from what I can tell, I don't think that the incidence of failure is greater with fish glue than with hide glue ... maybe John could chime in on this.

As for Titebond, well, that's what I started with when I started building instruments. But because I'm a novice at lutherie, I find that I'm taking instruments apart a lot, either to replace parts or to revise bracing or to correct other mistakes I've made (and if I listed them all, we'd be here all night). I switched to hide glue, and later to fish glue, because I liked that whole reversibility thing ... disassembly is easier, and reassembly doesn't require removing all traces of the original glue, the way you have to with Titebond or the white glue that LMI sells.

A lot of good luthiers like Titebond or the LMI stuff. But, then, a lot of good luthiers get it right the first time and don't have to go back and fix things.

[MaineGeezer]

At present, I use both Titebond and HHG. For joints that require significant working time -- like gluing on kerfing strips -- I use Titebond. For joints that have a high probability of needing to be taken apart or repaired at some point, I used hot hide glue. This includes the neck joint and gluing on the bridge.
I also generally glue the braces with hhg, as those sometimes come loose and need to be re-glued.

Hhg also has zero creep over time, while Titebond may slowly creep under load. At least some people think so. Another reason to glue on the bridge with hhg.

Although I have no data to support this theory, I also wonder if hhg transmits vibration better than Titebond.

Hhg lasts "forever" under the proper conditions. They have found things in the pyramids glued with hhg several thousand years ago that are still solid.

I would like to eventually get to the point of using hhg for everything. One requirement for that may be a big glue bush, so one can slather on the glue in a couple of seconds, and some means of positive alignment, so the parts can be assembled quickly with no fooling around.

[glasalle1]

I use a combo of glues. But for braces, bridge, glueing tops/backs to Rims, binding (wood) I like to use Fish Glue. I like the tack, and open time. I sometimes will use titebond for some things, and lately I bought and have been trying out the liquid Hide Glue.

I have made a few guitars with mostly Fish Glue, and so far, I had not seen any issues.

Glenn

[Danl8]

...Hhg lasts "forever" under the proper conditions. They have found things in the pyramids glued with hhg several thousand years ago that are still solid...

Quite true; the 1977 exhibit at the Chicago Field Museum displayed furniture from Tut's tomb that had been assembled with hide glue and was so noted at the exhibit. A few thousand years is good enough. I use FG HHG and TB without much concern.

[tippie53]

I have used all the glues and Frank Ford talked me into using the cold hide glue so here are some facts as I learned them.

I have been using fish glue for over 5 years and I know many that used it for over 10 . They all work but you have to accept some differences in clamp time and with Fish HHG and cold Hide I allow at least a 12 hr clamp time.

Why joints fail?

there are many out there with opinions but few that actually worked with it. David LaPlante is the man that turned me on to the fish glue and Todd Stock. David worked for a museum and had been using it longer than anyone I know with great success.
As for HHG it has a following , and the cold hide glue you have take your time and make sure the joints are perfect. That is one advantage to the tite bond , it will fill .

When it comes down to it , your joint integrity is key. I have used all these glues. I have had more bridges pull off with tite bond but they were early in my building and I don't think I had the bridge glueing technique down.

One more point , I don't care what glue you use , when it gets exposed to high heat and humidity , it will eventually fail. Also the protein glues do dry much harder than tite bond. The clamp time to Tite Bond is shorter only 45 min actually but it still needs 24 hr to totally cure.

On this last note , what glue you use has to be your decision. I do use all the glues for different reasons. I have fish glue guitars out there for over 5 years with no issues one is in Louisiana and that is humid place with no issues.

If you start using the different glues play with them and experiment. Find what does and doesn't work for you.
Fish glue has a 2 yr shelf life
Cold Hide Glue about 2 mo
Tite bond long time
HHG use what you need for today but if you keep it in a fridge when your done you can get a week out of it.

My Philosophy is , if your spending your time making a guitar and investing a lot of hours into it USE FRESH GLUE.

[Danl8]

Building on MaineGeezer's historical reference, I found a much more recent reference to fishglue/isinglass in T. Mace's Musick's Monument from the 17th century. My recollection was on target for 16th to 18th century luthiers' use of hhg, but i forgot that the use of izinglass/fish glue goes way back, too. Around ca. 1390 Cennini also wrote of plucked/stringed instruments repair using fish glue. All this to show that organic glues work well and have an established track record and the synthetic resins are late-comer alternatives. Most of the world's best lutemakers use hhg/fg not only from tradition, but in the belief that sound quality is not compromised. (a clip from the 1676 Mace manuscript below...)

[Phil]

Thanks for all the advice and insight, I appreciate it. The fact that protein glues dry harder (thus possibly sounding better) seems like a good reason to try hhg or fish. I might experiment with these glues on my next build.

How much open time is there with HHG? How much time to you have after applying glue until everything has to be positioned and clamped?

[MaineGeezer]

"It depends." If you pre-heat the parts a bit, if the glue is not on the high end of gram strength, if it's thinned down a bit, you may get a minute or two working time. More realistically, I plan on about 30 seconds or less. Note that I'm still quite a novice with hhg. I think you really need to get some and experiment with it to find out how it works. Initially, I had it too thick so it gelled almost instantly.

[tippie53]

I use HHG and you really to have to be efficient but as Mainegeezer says, heating helps the open time. I have used all of the glues.
One note of fish glue, it is a bear to get apart on larger joints like bridge bridge plates. Of the few proponents against fish glue I managed to get one to admit that he never used it. So the internet source is often not exactly the most accurate.