Bone as Bridge Material?

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Darryl Young
Posts: 1668
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:44 pm
Location: Arkansas

Re: Bone as Bridge Material?

Post by Darryl Young »

Freeman,

Here are some thoughts from Al Carruth in a post on the UMGF:

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.y ... angle.html
As John says, the height of the strings off the top seems to be much more of a factor in the sound than the break angle. That's what I'm seeing an an experiment I've been working on for some time. Basically, the break angle seems to make a small difference in the static stress on the top, which, in turn, causes it to deform in a slightly different way. This can effect the way it vibrates, but it's not likly to be a huge change.

Altering the height of the strings off the top changes the balance betwqween the two main driving signals; the 'transverse' force signal that pushes the whole top in and out like a loudspeaker cone, and the 'tension change' signal that tries to tip the bridge forward twice for every cycle of the string's vibration. Generally speaking, it's the transverse signal that makes most of the sound, since it's stronger, more effective at driving the top, and more efficient at producing sound for a given strength of input. However, the tension change signal does produce some sound, particularly at higher frequencies. So raising the string height off the top will alter the timbre directly that way, even if it does not produce more power.

Also, you have to remember that raising the string height off the top puts a lot more static stress on it, and the resulting distortion can make the top harder to drive. What I'm seeing in my experiment is that raising the string height off the top yeilds a sound with less fundamental and more of the second partial. This change seems to be pretty easy to hear, if my listening tests are to be believed, wheras altering the break angle along does not make much difference, so far as we can tell from the data I've got. Of course, there's no such thing as a 'perfect' experiment, but IMO some data's better than no data.
Slacker......
Freeman

Re: Bone as Bridge Material?

Post by Freeman »

Darryl Young wrote:Freeman,

Here are some thoughts from Al Carruth in a post on the UMGF:

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.y ... angle.html
Ironically that is the thread that I suggested the OP read on the middle of page one of this discussion. Al has also been contributing to this fascinating discussion over at MIMF (not exactly on this topic but some pretty cool simulations)

http://www.mimf.com/cgi-bin/WebX?50@126 ... cb6d41c/34

fwiw, my background is in engineering and simulation, I can get really wrapped up in the theory. Check out the article by Michael Cone in the latest American Lutherie.....
Darryl Young
Posts: 1668
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:44 pm
Location: Arkansas

Re: Bone as Bridge Material?

Post by Darryl Young »

I didn't know you were an engineer Freeman. I'm a mechanical engineer myself. I have BS degrees in Computer Science (with a Math minor) and Mechanical Engineering. I work in Industrial Automation.......feed mills, oven lines, rendering plants, hatcheries, refrigeration, etc.

By the way, I've been following that thread on the MIMF......I just added the Chladni patterns of my braced back for John Platko to look at.
Slacker......
rgogo65

Re: Bone as Bridge Material?

Post by rgogo65 »

" I do know from personal experience that replacing the thick heavy rosewood bridgeplate on my D18 made a dramatic difference in sound - my wife's comment when the work was done was "you are playing louder tonight". You will certainly be affecting mass - can't tell you if that is good or not."

So what did you use to replace it with Freeman??
Freeman

Re: Bone as Bridge Material?

Post by Freeman »

Darryl, my training is in electrical engineering with an MS in controls and simulation, I've worked all my life designing controls for industrial processing equipment. I work for a little OEM with a lot of cool machining and fab toys - cnc mills and laser cutters and such. I've got just enough background to sorta understand the simulations and math, just enough fabricating experience to be dangerous. If I need some kind of headstock drilling jig or maybe a router template I can do acad or solid works model and shoot it to the machining center - pretty spoiled.

Rgogo, I actually didn't do the work, Bryan Kimsey did. He has reset the necks on both my '74 D18 and '80 D12-28. Both guitars are from the "overbuilt" Martin era and both had the heavy rosewood bridgeplates. It is a pretty common mod to have a smaller maple one put in - in the case of the D18 I also had Bryan do a little scalloping (but he didn't pop the popsicle), on the 12 string the bridge needed regluing so it was a simple matter to do the bridgeplate (no scalloping on the 12 however).

The D18 was a pretty nondescipt average dread before, after the mods it was played back to back with both a GE and a 1937 D18 - the feeling was that it held its own very nicely (the guy with the old one offered to buy it so he would have to take the prewar out gigging). Since several things were done at once I can't say what the contribution of each was (and unfortunately I didn't record it first).

Modifying a guitar, particularly a Martin, is not something to be taken lightly. Bryan's work is some of the finest, but is controversial - here are some of his comments about what he does.

http://www.bryankimsey.com/music/rates.htm

(go back to his lutherie page to see lots of good info about old Marties)
ngerty

Re: Bone as Bridge Material?

Post by ngerty »

Thanks everyone. Very interesting stuff. Now that I am actually building a guitar I've become a little less ambitious than I was. Not in general, but for this guitar I think I'll keep most things the way they are and learn the process and skills of guitar building.

-Neil
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