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 Post subject: Old Brown Glue
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:12 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:45 pm
Posts: 219
Old brown glue has been discussed here a few times. Having been a Titebond user for at least 40 years, I recently took a deep dive into hot hide glue. After several months I came to the conclusion that I was just not up to the continual messing around with HHG and I also had a great deal of difficulty completing some glue ups before the glue set up. I am aware of all the various ways of extending open time, but I work on a lot of different projects at the same time and decided finally HHG was not adaptable to my use in a way that I could trust the joinery. So, I returned to Titebond, which has never failed me. Still, the theory that HHG sets up more rigid than Titebond continues to nag me. I don't know if the rigidity truly makes any differences tonally, but I kind of like the idea of a more rigid glue joint. Today I was visiting with a wood worker friend who trained extensively in japan, and who does phenomenal wood work, like making various pieces of complicated furniture using only hand tools and no glue. He does also use glue too on some projects and after discussing the pitfalls of HHG, he went to the fridge and gave me a present of a bottle of Old Brown Glue. He feels it has the properties of HHG, but with a long open time. Just wondering what experiences builders here might have. For instance, I can Titebond glue a bridge on with a vacuum clamp and remove the clamp in about 20 minutes and the bridge is a done deal. I don't stress it until the next day, but they never come off. I see that they say OBG requires 12 hour clamping, but I'm wondering if that is really true. Any experiences that you can relate appreciated. Enjoy your building.--Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Old Brown Glue
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 7:07 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:09 pm
Posts: 5936
Location: Hegins, Pa
Old Brown is basically HHG with urea added. I tried it once like you I use mostly tite bond HHG and fish
I am traditional so I do use HHG on bridges and fish for braces . Tite bond is a fine glue I think that the joinery is more important so if the joint is not perfect no glue will correct that.
The one thing that is hard to say is how much better one glue is over another. I like HHG and fish but again how good the joint is , is what matters. I do like the ease of reworking fish and hide as you can get them to reamalgamate and become glue . Tite bond is not so good at that and you have to get the old glue out for the new glue to work.
Lets face it , there are great guitars and instruments made with tite bond and dogs there were hide glue .

the technique is as important as the glue and yes Brown Glue does need extended clamp time.

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John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
president of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com


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 Post subject: Re: Old Brown Glue
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 9:56 am 
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Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:50 am
Posts: 674
Location: Chadds Ford, PA
I've used it on most of my projects for the last 4 yrs. I keep it in the refrigerator until needed then warm it to 120 or so. I do clamp for a minimum of 12 hrs, and usually 24 hrs -- but I am obviously not in commercial production, so if clamps stay on all week not a concern. I am also very familiar with HHG because of lute building, but am perfectly comfortable using Old Brown.


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 Post subject: Re: Old Brown Glue
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 1:50 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 8:03 am
Posts: 1119
Location: Chestertown Maryland
I have used it on 2 instruments and several pieces of furniture. I have bought the smaller bottles because they have a shelf life, and used any outdated stuff on furniture joints with large surface area. I, too, keep it in the fridge, and then put it in a bowl of hot tap water for a couple of minutes and gets real runny. No problems have shown up in the 4 years or so that I have been using it.

I tried both OBG and Franklin's version, and like the way OBG works better

Ed


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 Post subject: Re: Old Brown Glue
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 7:31 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:09 pm
Posts: 5936
Location: Hegins, Pa
Franklin was reformulated . I guess them made it cheaper stopped using it all together

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John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
president of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com


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 Post subject: Re: Old Brown Glue
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 3:16 am 
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Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:45 pm
Posts: 219
Still testing glues.I've really never had an issue, with 1 exception, with Original Titebond in over 40 years of use, but I'm still intrigued by the claim that HHG, Old Brown Glue, and Fish Glue dry harder. The 1 exception is that Titebond center joints on spruce tops do sometimes become slightly visible in reflected light.While slightly more difficult to do, Titebond can be taken apart and I've never found that to be a problem. If the joints are good, the creep issue is minimal or non existent. Bridges do not come off with Titebond, unless the joint is badly done or extreme heat is applied. I've glued on well over a thousand bridges over the years, with no issue unless the top was badly warped making a good joint very difficult to do. Dovetails do not come apart unless the joint is poorly done. I did one little test with Titebond and Old Brown Glue a couple of days ago. I made a small puddle of Titebond and Old Brown Glue, about the diameter of a quarter, on a piece of wood. 2 days later I could still easily imprint the OBG with my thumbnail, but the Titebond was very hard. I don't know about the validity of that kind of test, but I don't like the results very much.


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 Post subject: Re: Old Brown Glue
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 6:49 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:09 pm
Posts: 5936
Location: Hegins, Pa
I have seen cold creep on martin bridges. Not significant but they did move. You can see the finish in front of the bridge pop up. So for that reason I switched to HHG on bridge about 5 yrs ago. The why I tested wasn't like the glob but did joint tests
I did them face grain to face grain
Face to side
side to side
then end grains
in all the tests the glue pulled wood fibers except end grain didn't fare as well but that was expected

The hardness of fish and hide take a few days to truly harden

in gap testing tite bond did better than fish or hhg

in all the tests the franklin took longer to set then the others.

the fasted setting was hhg

what I did was make 4 joint each and tested them after 1 hr
then 2 hr then 4 hr then 24 hr

if anyone does the same thing let me know

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John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
president of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com


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 Post subject: Re: Old Brown Glue
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:08 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 2:45 pm
Posts: 219
John, Thanks. All good info. I know that actual testing glued joints is the best test. I'll get to more of that.


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 Post subject: Re: Old Brown Glue
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 4:17 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:51 am
Posts: 38
Location: Fishers, IN
I know this is an old thread but came across it looking for fish glue info, so....

John - you mention the Franklin liquid hide glue being reformulated - any experience with the Titebond Liquid Hide Glue product?

I've used lots of Titebond wood glue in model and furniture making - great stuff and easy to use but I can understand why people look for alternatives in instrument building.

Thanks!

Clay

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"Facts seldom sway an opinion." - John Hall
"The difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is no difference." - van de Snepscheut


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 Post subject: Re: Old Brown Glue
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 6:02 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:09 pm
Posts: 5936
Location: Hegins, Pa
the cold hide glues are not good with luthiery. I gave up after the reformulation. I like the fish glue and hhg I can also say the elmers glue dries had.
don't be afraid to test them also

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John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
president of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com


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