How much should a Rosewood Dreadnought Weigh?

[jsanders0202]

Hello all, I just joined this forum but I did search (hopefully extensively enough) before posting.
Before I explain the background I’ll ask my specific question, which is approximately how much should a dreadnought with rosewood back/sides and a spruce top weigh?

The reason for this question is that many years ago I built a Martin HD-28 kit. It was my first build and overall it seemed to go pretty well. Once completed, however, the guitar felt was heavy and it never had a great sound. Discouraged from the result put it aside and have played it very little.

Recently I decided to revisit the project. There were some other issues and I have removed the neck and bridge to address them, but I’m still not sure how to address the weight issue (assuming it is a problem). The closest guitar I have to compare is a Martin DM (laminate) and my kit guitar weighs about 12 ounces more than the DM.

My instinct is to thin the back and sides, but since I can no longer measure the thickness I’d like to confirm that it is heavy and, if possible, get some advice on resolving eliminating some weight. Below are the weights of the two guitars mentioned:

Kit Guitar Weight:
Total (with strings) 4 lbs. 14.8 oz.
Body (without bridge) 3 lbs. 2.4 oz.
Martin DM Weight :
Total (with strings) 4 lbs. 2.6 oz.

[tippie53]

using weight as a gauge on a guitar is not the best way to go about , though yes it may be an issue. One of the best guitars I ever built was Sapele that weighed a ton. The top is the main generator of the tone and volume . So many parts to the process and who knows what may be the one cause.
Often it is joint integrity , bad joints kill tone. Also if the top was too thick that can be a killer , then there is the string height and action plane so there is more than one thing to cause this problem.
When you reattach the neck , shoot for 1/2 inch of string height at the bridge and saddle. Too low and you are missing the energy of the strings to the top.

[Darryl Young]

I wouldn't worry about the weight of the sides or the neck as far as affecting tone negatively.

Even a stiff, reflective back can sound good. I would focus on the top thickness and how tall you've left the bracing on the top. Also, the weight of the bridge affects the sound.

[jsanders0202]

Thank you, gentlemen, you all seem to know more than I admitted so here's the rest of the story.

The biggest problem was that I didn’t use the fingerboard that came with the kit, but bought one with an shorter scale. As a result the bridge had to be positioned about .75” closer to the sound hole than per the plans. I just thought this made it a little awkward to play, but now I'm realizing that could have had a major effect on the tone.

The other issue was that the action over the fingerboard was high, but the string height at the saddle was low, resulting in a pretty short saddle. I believe I accomplished this by fouling the dovetail, which allowed the neck to pull forward. Again, I hadn't thought about how much this could effect the tone until now.

At this point I’ve scrapped the original neck (and fingerboard) and removed the bridge. I’ve ordered replacements and will try again with the proper scale and correct angle on the neck. Obviously the soundboard will need to be refinished so if I should remove wood I can, I just don’t know how to make that determination.

I’ll plan on leaving the back and sides for now, and see how it sounds after this next attempt.

[naccoachbob]

There are deep throated calipers that can help you measure the top's thickness. But I'm not sure if you can take measurements that would be meaningful with those.
I'm jumping into the deep end here, but as I understand, an "over-braced" top can create too much stiffness to allow the top to resonate well and give you good sound.
I believe that's why my first guitar, which I play almost daily, doesn't have the volume that I think it should. I'll be able to substantiate that this weekend, hopefully, if I can get my current project all polished up and put the neck on and all that goes with stringing it up. I made the bracing on this much smaller than I did my first.
But going inside an already closed box to take wood off of your bracing might be a daunting task. I think (and please, any professionals who know) that you can use small planes to go in there and do it. It would be almost a totally tactile thing, 'cause you won't have any way of watching what you're doing.
Please, anyone who's done this, do chime in. Is this a reasonable thing to try?
Best of luck with your work on it.
Bob

[newbybeau]

Is it possible that by moving the bridge .75"closer to the sound hole that it is almost on top of the x brace thus not allowing quality vibration transfer to the top?

[tippie53]

You need to understand that changing the fretboard also changes the brace position and the neck. Anything that is directly related to scale length is critical. So by changing a fretboard you in essence moved the bridge about 1/2 in up the body and taking it on the braces. You also lowered the string tension with the shorter scale length.
With the bridge moved off the braces that much you pretty much ended up putting the bridge at the wrong spot. That will not allow the energy transfer of the strings to be efficient as the original design. If you did move the braces up the you will be ok with one exception , the bridge scheme is as I said scale length oriented and the closer to the sound hole the less top you get moving.

[Darryl Young]

Yeah, if you didn't adjust the location of your bracing for the shorter scale length of the new fretboard, then you likely affected the tone to some degree.

My advice, is watch John's excellent videos on fitting a dovetail neck joint on YouTube over and over and figure out how to set the neck properly. Put on the original fretboard (or at least another fretboard with the original scale length). Then locate the bridge at the NEW correct location. If you get teh bridge located properly and get the neck angle correct so you have 1/2" string height at the front of the bridge, I'll bet your guitar will come alive. Unfortunately you have to refinish the soundboard but that's not the end of the world.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

[jsanders0202]

Thanks to all the replies, they are really appreciated. Since the original post I have removed the old neck and short scale fingerboard and replaced with new ones of proper size. I don't have strings on it yet, so no conclusions, but the work has gone great so far and I should start fretting the new fingerboard in a few days. I've already learned a lot, so hopefully this will all translated into tone!

Jim

[sylvan]

How do you know that the neck and fingerboard are the proper size? Everything is related to the fingerboard! Everything! When laying out the top always have your slotted fingerboard in hand! If you take a tape measure and measure to the 12th fret, and double that measurement, that should be approximately where the bridge goes +- 1/8". Is the bridge reinforcement plate there? Is it at the right location? All of this matters a great deal. Please check it to make sure your fretboard (and neck) are correct for how you initially made the body, and more specifically, the top before you put it back together. Good luck!