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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 11:19 am 
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tippie53 wrote:
I have no idea why it doesn't smell , I guess the process must render that out. As for gap filling a gap and maintaining adhesion is a different thing also a glue line of a few thousandths is normal filling a larger than .010 gap renders the adhesion less effective than tite bond.


So are you saying that even if the fish glue will fill a gap, it is a weak one? I suppose that could be because it is more brittle and less flexible than Titebond.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:16 pm 
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Location: Hegins, Pa
That is not what I am saying.
In a bad joint titebond will fill a larger void.
Without question, when you are building a guitar you want your joints as perfect as you can make them.
The more sloppy you are the less efficient the guitar will be. Fish and hide glue are much harder than titebond.

Don't rely on glue, rely on the joinery, the better the joint the more efficiently the vibration will move through the body.

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John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
Board of Directors of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:49 pm 
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tippie53 wrote:
That is not what I am saying.
In a bad joint titebond will fill a larger void.
Without question, when you are building a guitar you want your joints as perfect as you can make them.
The more sloppy you are the less efficient the guitar will be. Fish and hide glue are much harder than titebond.

Don't rely on glue, rely on the joinery, the better the joint the more efficiently the vibration will move through the body.


I know about tight joints, I am just trying to understand how tightbond is better at gap filling. I took a drop of fish glue and let it harden, it stayed pretty much the same size. I will do a comparison now to see which glue shrinks the most.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:51 pm 
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watergunn wrote:
Thanks for the update.

Also, my son wants to know why fish glue smells nothing like fish!!!!



It does have a distinct odor, though. The first thing I thought when I started using it was, "Hey! I know that smell!" It was the same glue that used to come in those little bottles with the flexible rubber caps, back when I was a sprout (more than fifty years ago). I don't know if it's available any more, or whether it's chemically identical to the stuff we're using for instruments, but it sure smells the same.

Speaking of gap-filling, I've had problems with some joins, particularly on repairs. I use a mixture of glue and sawdust to pack the joint, figuring that the sawdust will give the glue something to stick to besides itself. I suspect that it isn't as good as a properly fitted joint, but it seems to me that it's got to help a little bit.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:57 pm 
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Sounds good so far John.

Did you run tests on the wood to determine the mechanical properties before hand? It's not too hard to get the Young's modulus and damping factors to within a reasonable tolerance. May or may not be useful info, but what the heck.

Titebond creeps less than some other similar glues. I have to wonder if that creep has any bearing on damping in the glue line.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 4:22 pm 
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JLT wrote:
watergunn wrote:
Thanks for the update.

Also, my son wants to know why fish glue smells nothing like fish!!!!



It does have a distinct odor, though. The first thing I thought when I started using it was, "Hey! I know that smell!" It was the same glue that used to come in those little bottles with the flexible rubber caps, back when I was a sprout (more than fifty years ago). I don't know if it's available any more, or whether it's chemically identical to the stuff we're using for instruments, but it sure smells the same.

Speaking of gap-filling, I've had problems with some joins, particularly on repairs. I use a mixture of glue and sawdust to pack the joint, figuring that the sawdust will give the glue something to stick to besides itself. I suspect that it isn't as good as a properly fitted joint, but it seems to me that it's got to help a little bit.


I remember those days with those bottles of glue too. I get flashbacks when I sniff the fish glue, they are just not psychedelic. I do the same with gaps. I will sand some of the same wood I am gluing with fine sandpaper, then mix with glue, it works great. But of course it is no substitute for proper fitting joints.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:00 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:09 pm
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Location: Hegins, Pa
The more you build and the better your technique gets , the better the end result.

David Musselwhite is retired CF Martin repair dept and many may know of him. We had an interesting discussion about the 30 era guitars and his statement was
" Did anyone ever think , that at this period people were going through a depression . The elite employees were kept , and they did very good work. So maybe it was the construction by very good technicians that made a difference of this period. "

That statement does make a lot of sense. Figure the employees were not just good but appreciative that in a time of want , they had a good job and steady income , so the strived to be the best they could.

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John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
Board of Directors of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 12:33 pm 
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Ludicrious and insulting – to all craftspersons around the world. Real artists will and have worked work for nothing!!


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2014 2:23 pm 
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Location: Hegins, Pa
this is a statement about CF Martin guitars not artists. It does make sense. yes artisans will do what they do because it is what they do. This was considered a golden age for CF Martin and it makes sense to a degree. The statement was in no way meant to be defamatory but a simple observation.

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John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
Board of Directors of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:27 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2014 8:13 pm
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JLT wrote:
watergunn wrote:
Thanks for the update.

Also, my son wants to know why fish glue smells nothing like fish!!!!



It does have a distinct odor, though. The first thing I thought when I started using it was, "Hey! I know that smell!" It was the same glue that used to come in those little bottles with the flexible rubber caps, back when I was a sprout (more than fifty years ago). I don't know if it's available any more, or whether it's chemically identical to the stuff we're using for instruments, but it sure smells the same..


That paste was made from anchovies. I remember that paste too John. It was always a supply requirement for the primary grades.


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