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PostPosted: Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:59 pm 
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Location: Hegins, Pa
I have seen it and it is a documented fact. One of the issues of tite bond.
I agree that it isn't a major issue but it does happen.

The glue study is in process.

end results will be posted when the data is collected and processed.

Martin did an In house study when the golden era were in proto type stage. Brendan I think was the acoustic engineer involved . There is a difference but if the average person is able to tell , that is what this study is about. While other people are interested in this , it is an independent study and the information will be posted in the Guitarmaker first.

(EDIT: Those posts which referred to the separating Martin bridge have been split from the Glue Study into a topic of their own.)

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John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
Board of Directors of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 6:37 pm 
Hey John, any updated info to share??

-tommy


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PostPosted: Sun May 26, 2013 6:43 pm 
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with ASIA coming up I am strapped for time.
I do have some samples both in Mahogany and spruce.
We will use 2 woods for sample.
Still on the list I will be at ASIA Symposium in East Stroudsburg PA in June.

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John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
Board of Directors of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 3:10 pm 
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I have been using the Norland Fish Glue. I love it. the long assembly time is good, I have plenty of time for alignment. The high tack is good, pieces hold together while you clamp. You have to keep a damp rag around because it gets tacky on your hands, clean up is not bad. I cant wait to hear it. How is the testing going John?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:36 pm 
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slow but we will be making more progress soon. I have all samples ready. Now we have to hook up with the samplers. I need to make the unit that will be used to test.
Then it goes to Brian Howard and Lockhaven for analysis

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John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
Board of Directors of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:40 pm 
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I learned at the ASIA SYmposium that the initial Martin study was done in the sound engineering lab. Brandon, I think, was the sound engineer. Tim Teal may have also been involved. The study was done for the production of the Authentics .
Many of the ASIA luthiers are looking forward to the results of the study. I am hoping the results are worth the effort.

HHG and fish glue are equal performers in my book, with fish glue being easier to use and easier to take apart.

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John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
Board of Directors of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:07 am 
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I got to speak with Tim Teel of CF Martin

They did a glue study a while ago . As you may know I am also working on one so since then I will only post on what we know to be true and what observations we both did see.

Animal glue will not fill gaps in joints
tite bond will
these joints are audibly different.
This is more because of a bad joint as I would have to assume that a gaped animal joint will also be inefficient in sound transfer.

there is cold creep on tite bond
animal glue does not
also concurred by Alan Carruth on a post in UMGF

Animal glues are drying glues and will become glue again when water is added
Tite bond is a curing glue and will not glue on itself or any glue. Must be removed to reglue

At this point there is no need to discuss the strength as that is done in many other studies and we know the glues are indeed strong enough.
there is also a number of guitar made with tite bond , so we do that it does work. To what degree is one glue better than another , at this point there is tradition and repairability .

The advantage to the animal glues is they can re amalgamate and become glue again and tite bond won't so for repair I give the animal glue the edge.
Animal glues will take more time in clamping , and the hardness of the dried glue puts animal ahead of tite bond.


The next test will be more difficult as the tonal aspects will need to be applied. Will there be a tonal difference , We won't know until we can actually test . Then we can compare the results. It may take a while but we will keep you all posted.

Animal glues can spoil
Hot Hide glue has a short shelf life when mixed
fish glue has a 2 year shelf life
tite bond also has a long shelf life
NOTE: bottled hide glue is not considered for this experiment it had added urea and is unreliable for instruments.

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John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
Board of Directors of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 8:55 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:22 am
Posts: 51
tippie53 wrote:
I got to speak with Tim Teel of CF Martin

They did a glue study a while ago . As you may know I am also working on one so since then I will only post on what we know to be true and what observations we both did see.

Animal glue will not fill gaps in joints
tite bond will
these joints are audibly different.
This is more because of a bad joint as I would have to assume that a gaped animal joint will also be inefficient in sound transfer.

there is cold creep on tite bond
animal glue does not
also concurred by Alan Carruth on a post in UMGF

Animal glues are drying glues and will become glue again when water is added
Tite bond is a curing glue and will not glue on itself or any glue. Must be removed to reglue

At this point there is no need to discuss the strength as that is done in many other studies and we know the glues are indeed strong enough.
there is also a number of guitar made with tite bond , so we do that it does work. To what degree is one glue better than another , at this point there is tradition and repairability .

The advantage to the animal glues is they can re amalgamate and become glue again and tite bond won't so for repair I give the animal glue the edge.
Animal glues will take more time in clamping , and the hardness of the dried glue puts animal ahead of tite bond.


The next test will be more difficult as the tonal aspects will need to be applied. Will there be a tonal difference , We won't know until we can actually test . Then we can compare the results. It may take a while but we will keep you all posted.

Animal glues can spoil
Hot Hide glue has a short shelf life when mixed
fish glue has a 2 year shelf life
tite bond also has a long shelf life
NOTE: bottled hide glue is not considered for this experiment it had added urea and is unreliable for instruments.


Interesting post. I have a guitar about to be strung up that was built with Titebond, I have 2 others being built with Fish Glue. I find the Fish Glue does indeed fill gaps. I think I will do a test to compare this to Titebond.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:25 am 
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Location: Cumming, GA
Thanks for the update.

Also, my son wants to know why fish glue smells nothing like fish!!!!

Rick Gunn


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:12 am 
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Location: Hegins, Pa
I have no idea why it doesn't smell , I guess the process must render that out. As for gap filling a gap and maintaining adhesion is a different thing also a glue line of a few thousandths is normal filling a larger than .010 gap renders the adhesion less effective than tite bond.

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John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
Board of Directors of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com


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