Glue

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Darryl Young
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Re: Glue

Post by Darryl Young »

Keep in mind that strength isn't the only consideration when choosing a glue for the bridge. What about creep? The pull of the strings is constant and some glues are known to creep. What about resistance to heat? If a guitar is left a little too long in a hot car, what will happen to the bridge glue under the string tension? Will all the glues fail the same way when exposed to heat? Do some glues maintain their strength/rigidity right up to the melting point?
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naccoachbob
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Re: Glue

Post by naccoachbob »

In a post on another forum, I think someone did mention fish glue to me. Wish I could find the post to put it in context, as I seem to remember it has a good open time and is very effective.
When I was a kid, my folks used to make me go fishing - drop a cork in the water on a hot day and sit and sit and sit and maybe catch a bream (which seemed to be something my folks liked a lot), then sit and sit and sit and get sick from the sun reflecting on me watching a stupid cork.
I'm kinda adverse to anything having to do with fish.
'Cept shrimp and lobster.
Anyway, I can remember sometimes the fish being slippery, but then times when they were a bit sticky - maybe that was while cleaning them - which is worse than sitting and sitting and getting sick from the sun.!
tippie53
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Re: Glue

Post by tippie53 »

The only time I see creep happen is when a guitar is stressed bu heat such as being left in a hot car as noted . There was a study done not long ago in the guitarmaker magazine. Lmi's white glue was the better glue and HHG was rated 3rd. There is nothing wrong with tite bond , or white glue or HHG if that is what you want to use.
It is more important the joint integrity and mating surfaces are the best they can be . Joint mating is by far the most important factor in this equation .
John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
president of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com
kencierp

Re: Glue

Post by kencierp »

Creep is basically caused by neglect -- specifically the instrumenet gets too hot, left in a car, or worse in the trunk, next to a heat register, near a window in direct or even indirect sun. The damage may not show up for a very long time, but those careless incidents do cause a bond failure -- even with hide glue. So the root cause needs to be addressed -- not the presumption that creep will occur with a certain adhesive. I have instruments in the family that are (some if memory serves, over 40 years now) all bridges glued with Original Titebond --- Zero failures -- Zero creep. Also over the years I have never been informed of a bridge failure on a build or repair.
tippie53
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Re: Glue

Post by tippie53 »

As Ken points out , most of the issues with tite bond occur from neglect on the owners part . The only failures I have seen were operator error . Most notably poor joint prep . When you look at glue we are looking at a number of features . Glue shear strength , Hardness ( shock resistance ) Dampening effects etc.
Glue is argued for a long time that HHG is superior to all glues out there , and to be honest , this is not the case . Often people will use arguments that the older guitars sounded better than the new ones . Trust me , I heard some bad ones also from this period . It isn't just the glue. Age , wood and construction quality are more important . However , if you believe that HHG is better , go ahead and use it .
The only advantage to HHG is that is one of the few glues that will reglue to itself . As I mentioned before , your wood joinery is much more important that the glue holding it . As long as the glue has the strength to hold the joint , that is what is important.
Gorilla glue and epoxy are not good glues to use on a guitar. Any wood glue should do the job as long as it is viable.
John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
president of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com
JAC

Re: Glue

Post by JAC »

tippie53 wrote:Gorilla glue and epoxy are not good glues to use on a guitar. Any wood glue should do the job as long as it is viable.
John, are you talking of all Gorilla glue, including Gorilla Wood Glue? I have used the Gorilla Wood Glue at the suggestion of some other notable builders with good results. Seems to be pretty on par with Tightbond and quite capable of gluing up a bridge. If there is some reason to disfavor Gorilla's wood glue, it would be good to know. Thanks.

Aaron
Darryl Young
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Re: Glue

Post by Darryl Young »

Papachulo wrote:Hot Hide Glue. Why would you use titebond, it's like putting a layer of vinyl between soundboard and bridge.
That is probably the most common reason for folks use something other than AR glue......especially for braces and bridges......they don't won't a layer of vinyl to dampen vibration. Before I started my first build I read posts discussing the pros and cons of glue and decided against using AR (valid or not......just went with what I read). So my guitar is built with fish glue for all wood joints (the exception being epoxy for glueing the fingerboard to the neck) and Duco for the ivaroid binding. I even used a little fish glue when seating the frets at the suggestion of Mario Proulx. The reason for using fish glue instead of HHG is the longer working time of fish glue.

Now will I be able to discern a difference in tone when done??? I honestly doubt it. I went with the therory that a lot of small improvements add up (though each on it's own may not be a big deal).
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Tarhead
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Re: Glue

Post by Tarhead »

I'm still waiting for someone to come out with a special dye to add to glue to improve the tone like they did with the "special" felt tip markers for the edge of CDs when they first came out.
1.5 Suckers born every minute.
Tarhead
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Re: Glue

Post by Tarhead »

Have you guys read these studies on the hardness and tonal qualities of different glues?
http://www.mcknightguitars.com/glue-hardness.html
http://www.mcknightguitars.com/glue-vib.html
LMI White, Titebond 1 and Hot Hide Glue all look pretty equal. I can't tell the difference and I doubt anybody else could either. CA on the player's finger nails is the only place I've ever been able to "hear" glue make a difference and that was just to keep them from wearing off.
tippie53
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Re: Glue

Post by tippie53 »

in 11 years I have seen glue creep 1 time .To be honest ,I think that it is more often caused by bad glue ,bad joint or abuse. There is a very scientific study being done with Penn State University and CF Martin about the different glues and the tonal effects.
Only 1 pair of instruments were built under strict conditions of sistered wood . At this point HHG is winning but you cannot be 100% correct on only 1 sample. I hope to hear the end results soon
John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
president of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com
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