Glue

[kencierp]

Tony,
Its seems there is a self awarded badge of honor associated when a guitar maker (new or old) resists change to modern ideas. This is true of violin makers too --- I can't find the darn thing now, but the New York Times ran an article about a carbon fiber violin that was tested by some of the best players (and listeners) in the country and almost all agreed its superior in tone to the Strad's that we have been trying to copy for so many years -- the article made mention of how the guitar making commuity was edgeing toward some of the same concepts that were used in the construction of the carbon fiber violins.


So here's some info about old fashion glue not sure why it makes more sense then resin between the wood pieces -- you be the judge

Glue came into being when ancient tribes discovered that the bones, hides, skin, sinew, and other connective tissues from animals could be processed to remove collagen, the protein in these tissues. The collagen was sticky and was useful for holding things together. Milk solids, known as casein, and blood albumin can also be used as a basis for glue. Dried serum from cows' blood yields albumin that coagulates (clumps together) when it is heated and becomes insoluble in water.

Fish glue was also made from the heads, bones, and skin of fish, but this glue tended to be too thin and less sticky. By experimenting, early man discovered that the air bladders of various fish produced a much more satisfactory glue that was white and tasteless. It eventually was named isinglass or ichthocol.

[tippie53]

I will say this about glue . Tite bond has been used a long time CF Martin stopped using it in the early 60's. Joint integrity is more important than the glue used . HHG is great if you believe it . It can be a pain to work with and is not very user friendly .
Fish glue has good tack time and adhesion . Dries very hard. As stated above , you don't need a lot of glue to joint wood . I do use all 3 glues . Each have a job and can be used for best advantage .

[kencierp]

Yeah Martin has been using Titebond and long as I can remember, me too about 35 years or so -- never had a bridge failure. In my opinion "creep" is caused by careless ownership not the glue. You just cannot leave a guitar in a place where it will get hot --period. Plus its can be progressive damage over time. I use Titebond original, CA, very little epoxy and I am simply too lazy to use HHG. I find the shelf life aspect of the LMII glue very troubling -- same specs as the white PVA glues used in Chaina and Asia so I will not use it. As for the acoustic properties -- I doubt if there is a human that could ever tell the differences. I respect Tim McKnight, however, and this has been covered before -- his data is flawed right from the start because the glues are applied to metal -- I am sure you know where that's going.

[deadedith]

Titebond dries harder than the wood. Vinyl is not as hard as wood. Ergo - you can figure it out.
DaveB

I don't really have a dog in the fight - I learned Titebond, would use HHG if that's what I learned with, jeez there are so many axes to grind around here...

[tippie53]

I have to jump in here only to say something that I learned about glues recently . HHG and fish glue are excellent glues . There isn't anything wrong using titebond as it does the job well . I am finding that HHG and fish Glue does have some beneficial properties for guitars.
All 3 glues are strong enough so we don't need to take that issue any farther , and to he honest , the average guy may not be able to hear the differences between these glues . I got so see some good data on these glues that were done in an acoustic laboratory .
I agree that while the guitars are made of sistered wood , and it isn't a perfect scenario the 2 samples of HHG and Fish glue had a higher amplitude on the sound waves than the tite bond but this again is early in the study being done by Penn State.
Keep an open mind as I was of the school that tite bond was fne but I do see the tonal benifits of HHG. One thing that makes these glues better than Tite Bond is that they can be reglued without the reprep demanded of tite bond .
One note I think that is more important than the glue is the mating of the joint. If you have a bad joint the glue ain't gonna help .
There are plenty of tite bonded guitars out there that sound terrific and it is a fact that this glue from an engineering point of view is just fine . Fish Glue dries even harder the HHG and is more user friendly. In fact I am so happy with it that I am going to start selling it soon.
Glues are like religion and polotics , we all have out own feelings about it and lets respect that . You can put me down that I am converting a bit to the HHG and Fish Glues. I still use tite bond but have started using the the other glues on the top bracing.
The hard part is finding good scientific studies on these glues , as the studies are done more for strength studies than tonal . Look at it this way , if it holds it together under the stresses we put it under , it should do the job . Find what suits your philosophy .
If I had to rate the glues in difficulty I say tite bond is great for ease of working , fish glue next and HHG takes a bit more finesse
Thanks and please let us all agree to disagree .

[kencierp]

Why would you want to put a layer of vinyl between the bridge and soundboard? Wouldn't you agree that hide glue dries harder than titebound?

This is what is known in the political arena as a “straw-man” argument – a false or semi-true statement is made as if it were totally factual in an effort to make one’s view point appear to be a better idea or view than that of another. In reality, it cannot be said there is a layer of vinyl – where’s the proof, (actually properly applied Titebond leaches into the pores and draws the piece together) and if there were a layer of vinyl where’s the proof it would be bad? Perhaps that is a great idea – multi-thousand dollar audiophile speakers use a lot of vinyl, plastics etc. to produce high quality sound. And maybe it's harder -- where's the real proof that's a good or bad thing?

And to add to John’s comment – no scientific proof "one study"!!--- I’ve been in this business since 1965, this very same discussion has been on going, in all that time the boutique builders have yet to difinatively prove their rational -- In my view, for now its simply a "mystical" selling point --- I don’t think those using Titebond are as clueless as this “straw-man” statement tries to lead one to believe.

And -- this is all just my opinion.

[tippie53]

I think when it comes down to it , glues are a personal choice and there is no doubt that tit bond does the job. I also think that it is most difficult to quantify the results at this point as this is not something you can put a number as you can for a shear test.
Another point I need to make and I an sure Ken will agree , is that it most cases , it isn't so much about the glue as it is about the joint. While I personally am leaning to the HHG and fish glue it is a personal choice based on input from my customers . The evidence I have seen is not viable as there was not a large enough sample to base the final results .
It will be interesting to see what the outcome would be. I would love to see scientific evidence but I feel it won't ever happen as the variables in an instrument are so many and varied . Do my guitars sound better today than when I started , yes , they do , but I cannot say it is the glue , I credit that to my learning how to glue and brace a top. Voicing a top is also something that I do much better than my early days .
So again we can agree to disagree without being disagreeable . Pick your favorite method and use that for your own reasons. If anyone has a scientific study that they saw feel free to link it . Most studies I find rate these glues based on strength across shear and hardness .
The characteristics we need are Dampening , and tonal and with only a few thousandths of an inch , the inference is not that critical .

[kencierp]

Yes I do agree John, using any kind of glue as a gap filler (sloppy joint) is a detriment to integrity, most likely sound quality and for sure craftsmanship.

[Kevin Sjostrand]

"Here, Here!"
Well said.....
and, if there were a layer of vinyl, it might be a good thing.....ie; flexibility (allowing compression and contraction).
But then, I have no proof.

Kevin

[tippie53]

I think Rick nailed it . There are some things we all have to learn . It isn't just about the science of the guitar but the art . Science is matching the numbers for stress and applied engineering , Art is making it to what the luthier things it should be .
That is what drives me with these silly boxes . We all take wood , attach strings and get a sound. Most of us that make a living doing this appreciate the efforts that others do . I think the more I learn , the more I learn , I have more to learn .
I consider myself fortunate, as I have had some terrific mentors . Steven Kovacik was one of my first luthiers that helped me understand what a guitar is . David Musselwhite , and the whole repair department at CF Martin that helped me learn techniques that would be a foundation for repair and restoration. David Laplante , and Rick Davis who helped to point me in the right direction . ASIA , where I met so many great builders and learned from everyone . Dale and Jeremy Trach and Royce Getz at Martin for helping me get started and getting to right place at the right time to be able to learn and be exposed to be able to make this a career.
No one learned this on their own and had people along the way that gave us something that we could take with us . We all become the best builder we can from the things we learned and believe true ,that came from experience. I don't mean this to in a bad way but many that just started building may believe things to be true but will learn that it isn't. There is no magic number or opinion just a blend of skill and beliefs . We all have what we think it correct for us but there is enough here for all to be different . there is more than one way to do any one thing.