OM Vs OOO

[bearskindrum]

Hi Fellow builders...well I have finally got back on the forum ,although I had some fun and games logging on to the new website! ... although this was mostly my own fault, rather than the setup of the new website( well done John by the way!). Due to my first guitar( LMI OM) turning out so well, I will be starting to build my 2nd guitar shortly, for my wife. As I am already "Tooled up" to make an OM ,that was going to be style of my wifes gat( which just about every woman guitarist and a large number of men find very comfortable) however recent reading has got me very interested in a 12 fret OOO which may even be a better option, tonally.
From what I have read the OOO is basically an OM with a shorter scale length and a 12 fret slotted headstock with most every thing else being the same except for the bridge position being more central( obviously the soundboard bracing pattern would be a little different as well).The big difference seems to be in the sound which a lot of people describe as being "sweeter", "fuller" and more rounded.The playability seems to be easier as well according to many owners...I would be keen to know what the forum members think about the acoustic and playability differences, between these two iconic models? and also, as the sides for this gat are already bent to the LMI OM shape ( but nothing else has been started yet including the back or top being joined) does that mean that the LMI OM side shape would transfer to a OOO body?...also trying to decide on a top wood that would work well sonically with the Tiger Myrtle back and side set that I have...currently thinking about Redwood...appreciate your thoughts

King Regards
Mark Forster-King

[Freeman]

While the definition of OM and 000 are pretty clear, because Martin has made so many one offs and different versions, it can get kind of muddy. Here is my understanding of the basics

000-12 The traditional "small bodied" guitar which grew from the single and double oughts (which is approximately the same size as a classical). They were long scale (25.4) and wide flat necks (1-3/4 nut, 2-1/4 saddle). They are 12 frets clear of the body (hence the name), 15 inches across the lower bout, 10-3/4 across the upper. They are all slotheads.

000-14 The 14 fret 000's can be either long or short scale, narrow or wide fretboard, depending on the model, but most people assume that they will be 1-11/16 and 24.9. Basically what Martin did to the body was push the shoulders of the upper bout down to the 12th fret - the 12 fretters have a much more slopped shoulder. The body on the 14 fretter is about 1-1/4 inch shorter.

OM Almost by definition an OM is the short body of a 000-14 with a wide neck and long scale. I think that the actual body dimensions are almost identical. Both are paddleheads.

I think that both 12 fret 000's and OM's have pretty much the same bracing (scalloped 1/4 - John probably knows for sure) and that most of the 14 fret 000's are 5/16. Bracing seems to change from model to model.

My limited experience with these is as follows:

My first home built was a long scale 12 fret 000 based loosely on a 000-28VS. It is a powerful, well balanced guitar that likes down tuning and is my daily player. I also built a short scale OM/000-14 12 string - techically if Martin had built it it would be a 00012-42 or something. Paddle head, beefed up 5/16 bracing - a well balanced 12 string that I tune down. I've also built a single ought (short scale parlor) and a very long scale 000 twelve string, but these are kind of odd balls.

Last winter I got a hold of guitar from the Martin factory without a bridge (long story). I had the option of building it as either a long scale wide neck OM or a short scale narrow neck 000-14. I chose the former because that is the configuration that I like - I ended up making it a lefty and giving it away. The guitar was braced 1/4 inch and fit perfectly in the case that I use for my 000-12.

Anyway - here are a couple of FAQ's from the UMGF that might help (or confuse)

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.y ... /000-vs-OM

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforum.y ... Comparison

From their site

http://www.martinguitar.com/guitars/choosing/size.html

http://www.martinguitar.com/guitars/cho ... m=000-28VS

http://www.martinguitar.com/guitars/cho ... d&m=000-28

http://www.martinguitar.com/guitars/cho ... m&m=OM-28V

And this has a picture of my long scale 12 fret 000, short scale 14 fret 000 twelve string and the little guy for perspective. One thing that shows clearly is the location of the bridge relative to the middle of the lower bout.

http://www.kitguitarsforum.com/archives ... 28_0_9_0_C

And since I'm doing links, here is the Martin OM/000 thread

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/sho ... for-Kristy

[deadedith]

Speaking from playing experience only - the 12 fret to the body arrangement - which moves the location of the bridge slightly further from the soundhole - makes for a different sound - I call it 'warmer'. I've owned 2 12 fret guitars made by Hank Mauel - a 12 fret 000 that I will always own because of its sweetness and ease of play, and a 12 fret Dred that I had to sell and wish I still had, that was more than just a bluegrass box - I could finger pick it, play jazz on it, though the big box is not that comfortable for sitting and playing.
My point being that I believe you would hear a definite difference between the 'same' instrument in a 12 vs 14 fret configuration.
DaveB

[tippie53]

the sound hole and bridge position are both scale length oriented . They don't move unless you are looking at a 19 vrs 20 fret board . The moving of the bridge lower isn't always true as the body is lengthened to accommodate the movement. Larger air cavity in the 12 fret body makes for a big change . There is a slight change in the shape 12 fret vrs 14 fret except for the Norm Blake .

[deadedith]

Thanks for straightening that out John. There is a lot of information out there to the point I was trying to make, such as (from another forum):
"the 12 fret to body 000 model (Martin) with a 25.4 inch scale length was the result of many years if not centuries of development. The combination of the scale length places the bridge nearer to the center of the lower bout the on the soundboard which is 15 inches wide on a 000 model, this is thought by many much more knowledgeable than myself to be the optimum design for finger style playing = the most efficient string tension in relation to the soundboard diaphragm. This, on a well made instrument made of the right materials gives a full tone with the lightest touch, good note separation and awide volume dynamics ."
DaveB
Always something to learn

[bearskindrum]

Hell I'm confused! OK... so it seems that almost any combination is possible ...12 fret OM, 14 fret OM, 12 fret OOO, 14 fret OOO, short scale,long scale or any thing in between! OK what about body shape? is the side profile of an OM the same as a OOO? I note that the bending patterns on both LMIs website and Blues Creek website are listed as the same/interchangable... is that the case? if it is then I guess I could make either with my pre-bent sides OM or OOO 12 or 14 fret, short or long scale??
Regards Mark

[tippie53]

For what it is worth the 000 / 14 fret and the OM are the same as far as the actual body outline . The difference is actually inside is where the differences are . 000's can be both long or short scale but are 1 11/16 nut generally . The OM is longscale and 5/16 scallop bracing the 000 is generally 1/4 in bracing but that isn't always true .
It can keep you up late if try to think too much about it . The long scale will have a lower bridge than the short plus there is more tension on the body for the longer scale length and string tension . The 000 is smaller than the classical's they tend to be a bit larger in the upper bouts and often a thicker body .
I do think they work better with the strings on the outside . If you have them inside they tend to sound like a bagpipe.

[tippie53]

You again are correct on the OM designation but I think we all look at the 000/om as the OM. Just like often S is thought of as a slot head it actually means Standard and that means 12 frets . Am I correct to your records Rick ?
Love to learn when I can . Teach me my friend .

[Darryl Young]

Can't stay out of a thread like this! <smile>

Keep in mind that there is a "12 fret body" and a "14 fret body". Apparently when they came out with the 14 frets clear of the body they left the bridge, sound hole, etc. in the same position and just shortened the upper bout by distance between the 12th and 14th frets so that portion of the neck was clear of the body. So typically, a 12 fret neck goes with a 12 fret body and the longer, 14 fret neck goes with the shorter, 14 fret body.

A couple years back Martin released the Norman Blake 000 which had the shorter, 12 fret neck attached to the shorter, 14 fret body. Doing so caused the bridge to move down toward the middle of the lower bout to keep the same scale length (the Norman Blake has the Martin short scale). Some folks claim this makes for a "sweeter" sound. I've never heard one so can't comment.......but I would love to hear one. I'm sure it it sounds different and a lot of folks think it sounds better.

An interesting thought. A classical has the bridge nearly in the middle of the lower bout. It also has two large transverse braces.......one above the sound hole (like a steel string) and another below the sound hole and above the fan braces. Somogyi says in his book, The Responsive Guitar, that the bridge works best in the middle of the vibrating area......so he thought he was going to make a big improvement and out-whomp all the bluegrass guitar builders by building a dreadnaught with the bridge near the middle of the lower bout. When he built it, he was disappointed that it didn't have the strong monopole "whomp" he thought it would have (though it did have a nice tone in it's own right). His thoughts are that the upper transverse brace sets the limit of the vibrating area.........and on a classical, the middle of the lower bout is half-way between the lower transverse brace and tail.......and on a 14 fret dreadnaught, the standard bridge location is right about halfway between the upper transverse brace and the tail so already in the ideal postion. I've never read that before, but it sorta makes sense.

I'm about to start a 00 build where I'm putting a 12 fret neck on a 14 fret body......so sort of a 00 version of the Norman Blake. I'm doing it to shorten the length of the entire guitar so it will be easier for my younger girls to play (ages 7 & 11) but it will be interesting to see how it sounds. I'll use the Martin short scale (24.9") so it's easier for them to chord. Should make an awesome couch guitar!!!

[deadedith]

I do love a great "couch guitar" - never heard that term before but it's right up there with 'back porch' guitar!

DaveB