dove tail setting

pizz · Post by **pizz** » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:40 pm

My second kit, the first was about 4 years ago and I still do not have a good "feel" for this joint. I think my brain does not easily understand all the variables of the 3 dimensions. It's a kit from John Hall, and I am repeatedly viewing his video and consulting him on the phone. I think I might be progressing, but, I am wondering if anyone here has struggled with this and found a way of thoroughly understanding this joint and all the variables required to set the neck correctly.

pizz · Post by **pizz** » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:54 pm

This may be duplicated somewhere, hope not.

I could use some help understanding the dove tail joint, the variables in setting it up properly. It's a John Hall kit, and I am consulting him on the phone and repeatedly viewing his videos, but my brain seems slow to really understand. I have not gotten to the point where I can visualize how removing a bit of wood here or there affects the whole joint. Has anyone else struggled with "getting" this joint and found a good source of information or anything that you could pass on that helped you?

tippie53 · Post by **tippie53** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:42 pm

Take your time . I think you are overthinking the process. It is all cause and effect. Tiny amounts are able to make big changes

kencierp · Post by **kencierp** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:04 pm

I am sure John has far more tips then I regarding dove tails --- but back when I was working with them I did find that a product made by "BAUSCH" called Articulating Paper is very useful in the process. Its like two side carbon paper (some of the youngsters may not know what that is) but anyway you place it in the joint and it will leave a mark indicating where contact or interference occurs. Actually the product is used in the dental industry -- for some that may ring a bell. I've seen it on Ebay, it comes in different colors I guess black or dark blue would be the best choice.

Freeman · Post by **Freeman** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:25 pm

I will tell a dirty little secret (and probably be dishonorably drummed out of all lutherie societies for it). When I built my first kit I struggled with the dovetail, just couldn't get it seated perfectly tight with no rocking. Finally in deperation I drilled a hole throught the block, put an insert in the heel and sucked the thing tight with a nice little bolt while the glue set.

When I built my third, the OM 12, I still had trouble getting the joint to my satisfaction, out came the drill and the insert and bolt.

My mandolin has a dovetail, I managed to get it right, but swore that everything in the future would be a bolt on. I've built three of those, but on my bench now is nice Martin OM body that I'm fitting a neck to, and sure enough, shim and floss and sacrificial offerings to the dovetail gods and the damn thing still rocks. I've got one more insert....

Followup on the first two - they are now 6 and 5 years old and the neck angles are perfect. The joint is mainly held by the glue with the bolt acting kind of like that drywall screw in a Martin MT joint - it pulls everything nice and tight while the glue set.

I've got my flame proof underwear on, bring on the torches....

naccoachbob · Post by **naccoachbob** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:25 pm

You know, I was actually going to ask about converting a dovetail to a bolt on. So I will. Can it be done? I'm not opposed at all to what Freeman has done, and might steal that idea if I hit snags with it.

tippie53 · Post by **tippie53** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:30 pm

the draw back is that you won't get a good glue joint . A true bolt on will have 2 bolts . Martin uses a "bolt on " mortise and tenon but it is still glued. Bolting a dovetail works opposite of the mechanics of the joint. Yes it takes a little time to master but it is worth the effort.

naccoachbob · Post by **naccoachbob** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:28 pm

Well, I got 'er, so I'll give 'er a rip.
Thanks, John.

tippie53 · Post by **tippie53** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 8:37 pm

send pics we all like to see

naccoachbob · Post by **naccoachbob** » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:53 pm

Whoa, Nellie! I haven't finished my daughter's yet. This will be my 3rd, for my son. I just started reading Ervin Somogyi's books (I can read 2 at a time, hehe!), and will try to use some of his ideas of construction in it. The kit came from someone who didn't have time to work on a kit. I think they must have got the mold from you, by the way. I'm including a bearclaw top on it, which should arrive tomorrow, so building will start next week. Long way off from connecting the neck, but I'll focus on that part when I get there and try to take lotsa pics for that. Your videos have me intrigued about trying that type of neck, so standby for questions on it!

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