Dovetail v. Bolt (my long experience)

[stevemac00]

I'm a veteran woodworker and have cut all kinds of dovetails. My skills have always been adequate. Before buying my first kit I talked to John Hall who patiently provided this advice:

• Dovetail
  Pro - Stays put for a long time
  Con - Harder to work with

• Bolt-on
  Pro - Easier to work with
  Con - May not sound as good (some say) and requires tightening from time-to-time

Per John's suggestions I watch his youtube videos and decided nothing looked that difficult about it. Plus, as a woodworker I appreciate simple elegance and the dovetail neck is the hallmark of elegance so I ordered the dovetail 000 kit from John.

It started out okay and I made a 20° sanding block per Cory's book suggestion. As I carefully sanded the neck went down further but it also became loose. I'd shim the dovetail and try again only to achieve the same results. After doing this multiple times I realized I'd become insane before the dovetail would fit. (You might think I don't get it and you might be right but I understand the concept of sanding the lower half of the heel cheek and upper half of the dovetail to lower the neck or similar contrasts to change the lateral angle.)

Martin000_IMG_4782.jpg

Thankfully the neck in John's kit had a threaded insert. I thought it was there to attach to a neck holder for finishing but I had the another use for this ingenious addition. I cut the head off a 1/4" bolt and filed a center point before screwing it into the neck.

Martin000_IMG_4783.jpg

By screwing it in the right amount I was able to place an indent in the neck block just as the neck reached the desired depth. The indent showed me precisely where to drill a 1/4" hole through the neck block. Now I could secure my neck the without any fear of it coming loose.

Martin000_IMG_4784.jpg

If I build another guitar I doubt I'll get a dovetail neck and I'd suggest first time builders get a bolt-on. Maybe my bad experience was due to first-time builder impatience, an angle that wasn't quite 20° or some other variable. I'd like to try a dovetail again but I think I'd play around with it before gluing the neck block to the rim.

Fortunately I didn't have to epoxy the neck with adhesive filler and I was able to get the neck aligned perfectly with some shims before gluing and clamping. Then I put some satisfying torque on that bolt knowing it would keep my loose fitting joint from failing.

[tippie53]

as long as it works

[Ben-Had]

I had the same exact problem and did the same exact thing on my first. Converted to a bolt-on. Didn't have much success with my second but got it done. Before my third I went and spent a day with John to figure out what I was doing wrong. It was very minor stuff but what he taught me and the DT sanding block he showed me how to make made all the difference. Haven't looked back since:)

[stevemac00]

I'm sure it was me. If the angle is changed, a shim isn't going to bring it back. My sanding block was 20 degrees but I never actually measured the dovetail. If it was 21 then it's too late.

[Darryl Young]

On the Pros of bolt-on necks.....you forgot to add the main benefit: Neck can easily be removed to adjust neck angle (neck reset)!

Also, there are differet opinions......but I've never seen evidence that a bolt-on sounds inferior to a dovetail. Many believe this though, mostly traditionalists.

[Kevin Waldron]

Guys,

I think the dovetail actual taper ( dovetail router bit ) is a 9 degree angle and the spread between the dovetails is 20 degrees overall or 10 degrees from center.

See if this helps.

Blessings,

Kevin

[JLT]

On the Pros of bolt-on necks.....you forgot to add the main benefit: Neck can easily be removed to adjust neck angle (neck reset)!

That's a big plus for me, since I'm forever taking instruments apart to rebuild them or tinker with them. The easier I make the process, the better. (That's also why I use hide glue more than most other builders.)

[rienk]

I'm sure it was me. If the angle is changed, a shim isn't going to bring it back. My sanding block was 20 degrees but I never actually measured the dovetail. If it was 21 then it's too late.

Wouldn't this problem be (virtually) totally eliminated by using a DT or MT jig fixture - like the ones sold by LMI and others?
I think they sell plans... as a beginner, I wouldn't even consider doing that important part without fixtures and jigs to help. My hat is off to all of you who do it by hand!

[tippie53]

Well Reink
jigs and fixture help but you still have to set the neck , so plan on working that joint. It doesn't matter Bolt on or Dovetail the cheeks of the neck joint on both have to be manipulated to make the fit perfect. Once you master setting a neck , it is easy, Most people tend to over complicate this process and fix it till its broke.
You do have to learn to "read" the joint. Once you learn that , it is rather easy. Think Pinch Joint and it seems to help. As for Bolt on necks , they are fine but a Martin style bolt on is still a glued joint , so modify it with a 2nd bolt.
Also the geometry you incorporate into the sides helps this process. So work with your jigs as you build and you can make the process a lot easier. As you get into the business side of things, you will find out the customer base is more traditional and yes there are great builders using M&T or bolt on necks , but many buyers do like to see dovetail necks.
Prepare to offer both as a builder.
Here is a neck setting link. You can see the process.

[rienk]

On the Pros of bolt-on necks.....you forgot to add the main benefit: Neck can easily be removed to adjust neck angle (neck reset)!

Why don't people use a bolt on dovetail?

Out of curiosity, what is the joint used for cantilevered necks (like McPherson)?