HD28 Kit - First Build

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Rick S
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:54 pm

Re: HD28 Kit - First Build

Post by Rick S »

kencierp wrote:I now prefer through brace ends inlets -- but I agree with John's method of using a high speed rotary tool to cut brace end pockets. Since you have to deal with the ribbon lining kerf slots the process is delicate to say the least, its easy to cause an unwanted chip out even with a very sharp chisel.
I know about those unwanted chip outs for sure. I'm going have to experiment with the through brace end inlets method as well. It seems to me that this would provide a little sturdier construction but I don't know enough about it at this point.
Rick S
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:54 pm

Re: HD28 Kit - First Build

Post by Rick S »

Darryl Young wrote:If using through brace inlets......anyone see a need to trim the end of the inletted braces short of the binding? I've read claims that leaving the ends of the braces against the binding can push on the binding causing it to pull loose from the rim. Sure can't recall where I read that so thought I would ask.
I think I saw a post from John on the board somewhere where he talks about this very problem.
hummingbird
Posts: 277
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:10 pm
Location: Ottawa, ON

Re: HD28 Kit - First Build

Post by hummingbird »

Ken, are you saying that the brace will swell only (mostly) perpendicular to the grain with humidity and not laterally? Therefore if the brace is touching against the binding it will not expand with humidity in that direction and push the binding outward?
Alain
Rick S
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:54 pm

Re: HD28 Kit - First Build

Post by Rick S »

kencierp wrote:Do we really think that Taylor for one who makes over 200 guitars a day using the through method for brace pockets would continue to do it if it were a warranty concern? Has someone seen what looks like the binding came loose right at the brace pocket -- perhaps? If its a really problem seems Charles Fox and James Olson should be clued in on it $7000 -- $10,000 -$20,000 per copy. Through or motise its a choice -- nothing more. $.02
Ken, you certainly have a point about Taylor, Fox and Olson. Don't think I buy the premise though that it's simply a choice though. I haven't been doing this very long but I think common sense would also tell you that there are clear differences with different advantages and disadvantages. For one, using the through cut method, I personally am afraid I would cut too deep so that the brace would show through the binding. Maybe not a concern for a production shop, but for me, it's a definite concern. On the other hand, I'm embarrassed about how trying to cut just the kerf and not the side with a chisel made for several, ugly, ugly joints on this guitar. I would also think there would be differences in the durability of construction. Wouldn't the additional contact with rim provide greater support than if the brace only makes contact with lining? Maybe Taylor, Olson and Fox would rather have sturdier construction even if it means having to deal with a loose binding from time to time. Plausible?
Rick S
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:54 pm

Re: HD28 Kit - First Build

Post by Rick S »

Ken, does your site have a procedure for locating the position of the inlets? I looked a couple of weeks ago and didn't find it. I tried using a pencil to mark along the braces where the braces cross over the linings and also tried marking the rim where the braces would intersect (and then connecting the marks). I didn't really gain a lot of confidence with either method that I was marking the correct spots. I'm in search of a method that provides for better visual confirmation and better methods of cutting (although I think the Dremel or my laminate trimmer will be the best for me at some point).
deadedith

Re: HD28 Kit - First Build

Post by deadedith »

Just to show what some classical builders do - see attached pix.
Brian Burns showed me how he used tentallones instead of solid kerfing; in other words, each piece of lining is glued on separately, and where a brace is going to be inletted that particular tentallone is glued on top of the brace, so there is always perfect contact between the brace and the glued on tentallone.

I've been messing around with a way to do that with solid kerfing.
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Rick S
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Re: HD28 Kit - First Build

Post by Rick S »

deadedith wrote:Just to show what some classical builders do - see attached pix.
Brian Burns showed me how he used tentallones instead of solid kerfing; in other words, each piece of lining is glued on separately, and where a brace is going to be inletted that particular tentallone is glued on top of the brace, so there is always perfect contact between the brace and the glued on tentallone.

I've been messing around with a way to do that with solid kerfing.
Thanks for the pix Dave. That's a novel idea. I like the fact that it eliminates the need for routing or chiseling. For X bracing, most of the kerf could be glued on normally but you could leave a small sections at the inlet points bare for gluing on the kerf later. These sections of kerf could be exactly positioned and glued as in your picture after the rest of the top is glued on the rims. To the extent that the notched lining helps position the top properly on the rims, you'd have to be careful that the top doesn't slip while gluing and clamping the top. This idea has some potential. Thanks again Dave.
Rick S
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:54 pm

Re: HD28 Kit - First Build

Post by Rick S »

tommyboy wrote: Rick,
Frank Finocchio produced a five DVD set on guitar construction. He demonstrates using a Dremel free hand to cut the purfling at the X brace intersection as you describe, without cutting the sides. This DVD set can be rented online at smartflix dot com.

Alternatively I suppose you could temporarily attach the purfling with double sided tape and make your markings. Then remove the purfling and do your cutouts before permanently gluing the purfling to the sides.

tb
Thanks for the tip about smartflix. I'll definitely check it out.

I like your idea to determine the location while the kerf is on the side. I think I'd just dry fit the kerf with my high tech close pins. The thickness of the double sided tape might impact the location a little bit once the kerf is actually glued on without the tape. If the kerf were dry fitted in position using cloths pins, the clothes pins at the notch locations could be removed while making the marks.

To determine the location, I'm thinking that the X brace and bridge support could be glued together and used prior to gluing the braces to the top. If the X braces could be placed in proper position, the exact location of the notches could be easily marked. The trick would be to get the X braces in proper position for marking while also being able to match this same location when the X braces are glued on the top. A template made out of plexiglass could use the predrilled alignment holes in the neck block (on Martins) as well as the center at the tail block to hold the X brace in proper position. This same template could be used, after being aligned with the two alignment holes in the top and centered at the tail, to glue the braces on the top in the exact position that will align with where the markings were made on the kerf.

After marking the notch positions on the kerf, the kerf could be raised just a little bit over the edge of the rim, a notching jig could be clamped in the position to match the notch locations. Then, the perfect joint could be routed at preset depth. I really think this could be made to work.
Rick S
Posts: 79
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 9:54 pm

Re: HD28 Kit - First Build

Post by Rick S »

Hopefully I'll be able to get back on track now. I received my set of bearings / bits for the bindings so it's time to get busy and close the box. I have the nitrocellulose lacquer and access to a FUJI mini-mite3 sprayer that I'm anxious to try out on my guitar. Used the FUJI to spray some cabinets this week and it does a great job. Still need to get the pore filler though and find and view the ZPOXY method again.
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