A new look at an old argument

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jstream

Re: A new look at an old argument

Post by jstream »

Tony_in_NYC wrote:John is right. I will add that this one is a bit harder than that one. However, when done right, the other one is much more adjustable than the first one. So, which ever one you choose, this one or that one, you can rest assured that one is harder than, or easier than, the one you didnt choose. Is that clear?

Works for me
Tony_in_NYC
Posts: 827
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:11 pm

Re: A new look at an old argument

Post by Tony_in_NYC »

I will chime in.

I know I said one was harder than the other one, and if you choose one, you can rest assured it will be easier, or hrder, than the one you didnt choose. I was joking when I said that. I think most people know that because what ZI said meant absolutely nothing.
For my serious answer, keep reading:
I will never build a dovetail neck. I do not think it is worth the trouble.
I just set up the Koa OM last night and I had to tweak the neck angle. I did so by "flossing" the neck joint with sandpaper. You simply can not do that with a DT neck joint. I was all tweaked in about 5 minutes. Personally, it would have taken me a week or more to tweak a DT neck. Mainly because I have no experience with them. A skilled DT craftsman could probably do it in minutes as well, but it takes more time to learn them and at my pace of 3 guitars a year, I would never get it down like I have the MT joint "solved" as far as neck angle and set up.
Ben-Had
Posts: 1405
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:14 pm
Location: Creedmoor, NC

Re: A new look at an old argument

Post by Ben-Had »

I prefer a bolt on and can't tell the difference sound wise between the DT and BO (neither can any, I repeat ANY, of the people that have played my guitars). I have yet to have some one play one of my BO's and say "Oh, this must be a bolt-on." Invariably they tell me how great it sounds and that is because they do. Now having said that, I will say that working with DT's has made working with BO's a whole lot easier for me. And that is my .02.

Tim B
Tim Benware
deadedith

Re: A new look at an old argument

Post by deadedith »

I don't think I can rise to the level of rhetoric of the 'this one is harder than the other one is not' part of the thread, nor can I contribute anything other than what I have read concerning the various merits of either the hard nor the hard+/- divided by the square root of a banana.

But my limited experience with a number of KMG kits and the bolt-on MT has been positive: my first instrument has been sitting around the house for a couple of years, gets played (sounds great), ignored, suffers the indignities common to items leaning against a couch, etc. and the neck joint has yet to complain.

I am not anxious to enter the fray any further so I say: Fray on, you that fray! :-)
DaveB
kencierp

Re: A new look at an old argument

Post by kencierp »

Here's a guy working on a dove tail -- note when the tread started -- not easy!

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=980&p=7862#p7862
Darryl Young
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Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:44 pm
Location: Arkansas

Re: A new look at an old argument

Post by Darryl Young »

I'll mention a few things but these comments are based on my mechanical engineering perspective.....not experience with both joints (I have only used a bolt-on neck).

The tension of the strings tends to 1) pull the neck into the body and 2) rotate the neck forward (in the direction that raises string height off the fretboard).

Just looking at the mechanics, the face of the cheeks on the heel make contact with the guitar body and support the tension of the strings. This is true of both a dovetail or bolted joint. So if transmitting vibrations from the neck to the body is an issue, a good fit of the face of the cheeks to the body would be important.....but equally so for both joints. Now which joint holds the face of the cheeks on the heel tighter against the body.....the dovetail or the bolt-on? A well fitted bolt-on like John H. can do so well will indeed be tight fitting when "popped" into place like he does. It amazes me how tight and strong this is in the videos he made. Of course, a less experienced person could mess this joint up and it wouldn't be tight (just like someone could not tighten the bolts sufficiently on a bolt-on) but it's only worth our time to consider well executed joints.

With the above said, considering the mechanical advantage of screws, I can't imagine a dovetail could hold the cheeks of the heel against the body as tight as a decently tightened screw. Add to this that it's simpler to get the heel fitted to the body to maximize surface area contact between the cheeks and body when using a bolt-on neck. So I would say when the joints are well made, a bolt-on has the advantage over a dove-tail neck in holding the cheeks tight against the body which gives the best chance of transferring string vibration with minimal dampening. On a joint that isn't executed perfectly, I would venture the bolt-on could have a large advantage.

So how about the other issue of resisting the force from the strings that wants to rotate the neck forward? If you understand the concepts of a moment arm and mechanical advantage, the bottom portion of the heel is the key area that resists this force. So here we are comparing the strength of a portion of the web area on the neck dovetail to resist this rotation vs the ability of a bolt to hold tight (the strength of the bolt is so large compared to wood that there is no comparison........only issue is if the bolt comes loose). I don't have enough experience to say if the bottom bolt on the neck will loosen over time but I haven't seen it on the guitars I've been around with bolt-on necks. And you could always use Locktite to prevent this happening. Actually, there are weaknesses in the shape of the pins and the tails on a dovetail joint........the biggest benefit is that it increases the glue area. Here again, a bolt is substantially stronger than any wood you will use for a neck.

So considering the above, I don't belive there is a tonal advantage to a dovetail neck joint. I also don't believe it is stronger. I also think the dovetail joint is more difficult to fit properly. And I'm thinking that if the joint isn't well executed, then a dovetail neck would dampen more than a bolt-on that isn't executed well.
Slacker......
jstream

Re: A new look at an old argument

Post by jstream »

I guess it says something if Cumpiano, the man who wrote the "bible" (I guess) of guitar making, uses bolt-on necks. Again, thank you to all who answered. I now feel completely confident that either can work just as well.
Freeman

Re: A new look at an old argument

Post by Freeman »

I'll jump in with my opinion - you know what they say about opinions...

First, I've built four guitars/mandolins with dovetails, reset a few more. I have not reached the point where I feel that I can do it "perfectly" so when my two beloved Martins needed resetting I had it done by a guy that I trust (and paid him the $400 each) On mine, I've actually resorted to putting a bolt in a couple of them when I simply had enough futzing and shimming and chiseling - and I know that is exactly the wrong thing to have done. You want to really have fun - try setting a dovetail mandolin neck.

I have also built one Spanish heel (not part of this discussion) and four bolt ons - in my humble opinion (there we go again) - the bolts have perfect geometry, are tight as hell, and I know I can easily reset them when they need it (and they will).

I'm a great fan of Martins, but the two guitars on my radar if I ever buy another are Froggy (d/t) and Collings (bolts) - both are incredible guitars - I could care less about the joint. Carried to the extreme, the Taylor NT doesn't require any human intervention at all - providing you have enough technology - I'm just not a big fan of Taylors.

It is interesteing that Cumpiano did change from a rather funky bolt on of his own design to a more traditional one (he also refered to the d/t as the "joint from hell"), it is also interested that David Freeman uses a Spanish heel on all his steel strings, including his 12 strings. btw, the two departures from traditional on my Stella clone 12 string was the addition of an adjustable truss rod and the bolt on neck. I also used a bolt on in my tricone instead of the traditional neck stick (which actually is a pretty elegant design, but again, not part of this discussion).

So, while I hear what John says about how easy it is to set a dovetail, and I've looked at the vids and studied the geometry - for me everything in the future will be a nice bolt on with a lightly glued fretboard extension. Your milage may vary.
tippie53
Posts: 7011
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:09 pm
Location: Hegins, Pa
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Re: A new look at an old argument

Post by tippie53 »

I agree that the neck joint when done properly is not much of a tone changer. Any neck if not attached well will have a dampening effect. I will tell you that I am a traditionalist . I use dovetials as my choice but have used bolt ons.
John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
president of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com
Wheat

Re: A new look at an old argument

Post by Wheat »

Most folks who are expert at fitting dovetails became so by re-setting necks to repair old Martin (and Gibson) guitars.
It's interesting to see how people who essentially came at the work through a building perspective have chosen just about everythng else but.
I'm very conversant with both types of construction and each have their pitfalls. Overall, I think the bolt on (or Martin M&T) is easier by far. Dependant though on having the right machined parts to begin with.
Soundwise it's a wash I think, all other things being equal.
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