Length of Old and New Versions of the Martin Long Saddle

tippie53
Posts: 7011
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:09 pm
Location: Hegins, Pa
Contact:

Re: Length of Old and New Versions of the Martin Long Saddle

Post by tippie53 »

To what running dog posted . As repair people we see more cracks from poor fitting saddles than anything. Since each crack may be more on an individual basis . I like to use drop in saddles more but when I do need to use the through I am more into the older style . While it is a pain to make adjustments , I feel the glued in saddle is more stable and makes the saddle a more integral part of the bridge .
It is difficult to say one will sound better than another . The slight amount of changes in mass and weight are so small that most if us may not be able to hear anything . If you feel it makes a difference go ahead an use them .
John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
president of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com
kencierp

Re: Length of Old and New Versions of the Martin Long Saddle

Post by kencierp »

If we are picking sides -- I want to be on Rick's team! His thoughts are very logical to me. On the other hand - There are no studies or blind comparisons to support either argument for that matter. In contrast there are 1000's of real world instruments that sound great regardless of bridge configuration --IE take a look at the Kasha design it is no feather weight. And in one comment above "all classical guitars are made with Rosewood Bridges" well that is simply total BS -- Geeezz look around.
Darryl Young
Posts: 1668
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:44 pm
Location: Arkansas

Re: Length of Old and New Versions of the Martin Long Saddle

Post by Darryl Young »

kencierp wrote: And in one comment above "all classical guitars are made with Rosewood Bridges" well that is simply total BS -- Geeezz look around.
Well, essentially all high end classicals (all we probably care about.....maybe some want to emulate low end models). Are any famous classical luthiers using ebony bridges? Per Somogyi, there are essentially none. I have no idea what bridge materials are used on low end models.

RD, Mario said it was minutia, (didn't say it is a significant element). He said the depth of the saddle slot has more effect on tone. His point was that it is a small contributor......and small improvements here and there add up to contribute to the final product so shouldn't be ignored. I think you make good points about the practicality.
Slacker......
kencierp

Re: Length of Old and New Versions of the Martin Long Saddle

Post by kencierp »

Darryl --- please I am 65 years old, been doing this since I was in high school I've seen many, many high end classical guitars and guitars in general with Ebony bridges. That statement is designed to support someone's opinion. Not seeing or knowing something or someone is not evidence. He believes what he wants to believe -- don't we all. Not that Martin makes the best classicals, but certainly if was an important acoustic feature they would not have used Ebony Bridges. Hey here's an idea -- make the Ebony bridge smaller then the Rosewood to reduce the weight -- maybe? I've said it before -- stating what is best in the construction of a guitar, no matter who says it, it is still just an opinion. Just do the factorial number for the variable construction elements combinations -- every thing changes every thing. The great thing is we are free to believe what we want to believe and construct any thing we like.
Last edited by kencierp on Sun Feb 20, 2011 11:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
kencierp

Re: Length of Old and New Versions of the Martin Long Saddle

Post by kencierp »

Someone ask about Walnut bridges -- actually Kaman did just that for weight reduction and that is what can be found on the high end Ovation guitars. Pinless as well -- so I guess the Walnut is sturdy enough. Way back when, Kaman used high tech sonic equipment normally used for aircraft design and came up with some interesting conclusions -- like some of the first Ovations had "aluminum necks!!"
tippie53
Posts: 7011
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:09 pm
Location: Hegins, Pa
Contact:

Re: Length of Old and New Versions of the Martin Long Saddle

Post by tippie53 »

I agree most classical bridges are not ebony but again , you cannot compare them to steel strings. The size of a classical bridge is also considerably larger that is why as Ken points out they used rosewood . You have to take into account on a bridge , what you want it to do . It is the only brace that is on the outside of the guitar.
Look at the dampening effects and what mass and density do to the transfer of energy . One helps to bring out sustain the other can aid the treble side . It is just part of what you can manipulate the tone with . Don't assume all you read from the internet experts is true . Many people that are considered "experts" are actually just strong opinionated and if you hear it often enough you tend to believe it . The variables are too many to say for certain . I use ebony on all my steels strings unless I use BRW . They are the only woods that I like to use . Find what works for you to get the tone you need .
You can use the laws of physics to your advantage and you can't change them .
John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center
president of Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com
Kevin Sjostrand
Posts: 3712
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:06 pm
Location: Visalia, CA

Re: Length of Old and New Versions of the Martin Long Saddle

Post by Kevin Sjostrand »

I know this is off the original topic, but............
My biggest concern with using walnut for a bridge is if the wood itself will be strong/stiff enough to hold the saddle securely with all that pressure on it. I have some beautiful claro walnut that would make a sweet looking bridge on my walnut OM, so I've been wondering. Perhaps one of the thicker saddles would be a good idea...I'm thinking more saddle mass, more strain on the saddle, a little less on the surrounding wood????

Kevin
kencierp

Re: Length of Old and New Versions of the Martin Long Saddle

Post by kencierp »

Kevin -- did you see my post above about Ovation using Walnut for bridges? I would suggest that you do some shear tests to find the best grain line orientation. Just a guess but I would think material that is a bit riff cut would be less likely to shear/crack along the grain line.
Darryl Young
Posts: 1668
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:44 pm
Location: Arkansas

Re: Length of Old and New Versions of the Martin Long Saddle

Post by Darryl Young »

Kevin, I have a Simon & Patrick Luthiers guitar (made by the Canadian company that sells under a few brand names). I can't say for sure it has a walnut bridge, but it sure looks like walnut. It sounds decent, certainly not great though most likely the bridge is the least factor (heavily braced).
Slacker......
johnnparchem
Posts: 2354
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:50 pm
Location: Seattle
Contact:

Re: Length of Old and New Versions of the Martin Long Saddle

Post by johnnparchem »

While I am sure it is not appropriate for a steel string guitar, I have seen classical guitars with extra long saddles (as much as 50% longer than the saddle slot) maintaining an extension of the angle low to high : treble to bass, so that the player can change the action sliding the saddle left or right. I have not made such a saddle.
The two uses I have seen were custom makers allowing the player to play with different actions until they were happy. But I have also seen guitar that were left with the extra long saddle.
Micro intonation on the saddle for a classical is not as important as on a steel string.
Post Reply