Why don't all guitars play and sound good? (Long)

[Lynn Livingston]

Boy, I know that is a loaded question, but let me tell you why I ask it.
First off, hello everyone, I have recently become interested in building a guitar because the Fender standard (acoustic) I bought is hard to play and I've become convinced you will have to pay $1000s of dollars to get a guitar that plays easier. I knew nothing about guitars when I bought this at a local music store (still don't know much, hence the subject) and relied on the salesman to sell me a guitar that I could go take some lessons on. After a few lessons, my instructor advised me to get a guitar that is "easier" to play so I won't struggle and get discouraged. Well, I can't afford a Taylor like he plays, or most of the guitars for sale in his shop (different place than the music store I bought the standard). I payed $350 for my Fender, and it is hard to fret some chords because it has a "high" action and "buzzes" quite a bit. These are terms I'm learning as I go along, but this is what my instructor says is the main problem with my current guitar.
So, I go back to the music store and try more guitars. I played some $500 - $600 Martins that didn't seem to play any easier than my Fender, although they sounded better. I played some Seagulls, Breedloves, a Dean, two Takamines (sp?), a $700 Taylor and finally an Art & Lutherie. Out of all those, to me at least, the Art & Lutherie played easier than any of them others, and was about the least priced one. The sound was good enough to my inexperienced ear too. If he would have offered me within $50 of what I just gave as trade in on my Fender, I would have went home with it as well.
What I couldn't understand is why the $500 Art & Lutherie was easier to play than the Martin and Taylor, and the rest. I asked the salesman that and he couldn't answer the question straight. He kept saying that just sometimes, a cheap guitar ends up being a really great guitar, but it was mostly an "accident", and you really should expect to spend mucho $ to get a great guitar. And, I will admit, I played another Art & Lutherie yesterday in another shop and it was not as easy to play for sure.
So, my question is, why don't all guitars play the same? I know now about different woods, and wood cuts even, being used for different applications and tonal direction. But, as far as construction, why don't every manufacture make fretboards that fret easy, and build bridge and saddles with low action? I can't see that it costs more to get the strings lower, right? For that matter, why can't my Fender be "finished" now by someone to make the action lower and easier to play?
So, can somebody please give me an elementary lesson on why acoustic guitars are so varied in price and construction? And maybe through this conversation I will discover how, buy building a kit, I might hope to have a guitar that plays "easy", regardless of sound quality. I've read through several posts on this forum, and so far, I don't see anybody really concerned with playability, but I do see concerns with sound and quality. Shouldn't playability be somewhere in the top 3 concerns when buying, or building, a guitar?
Thanks in advance for those who will attempt to enlighten a nubie to what's going on in the world of acoustic guitars!

Lynn Livingston

[seanbig]

Lynn,

It sounds like you are struggling with high action and probably higher gauged strings. I would first try a lighter gauge string. Acoustic strings usually come in light, light-medium and medium. Medium strings are the thickest and most difficult to fret. Try changing to light strings and see how that suits you.

If you still seem to have a problem, you can lower the action on most guitars by tightening the truss rod. Not all guitars have a truss rod, but most do now. Higher end guitars usually can have lower action without getting buzzing on lower frets. When adjusting your action with the truss rod, make sure it does not create buzzing on the frets. I am assuming the buzzing that is occurring on your current guitar is because your fingers are not strong enough to completely fret all the strings, not from too low action.

I am not familiar with the Art & Lutherie brand, but it sounds like the salesman doesn't really know much about guitars or just wanted to get you out the door with one. If you played the same model at another store and it felt different, it was probably just a different gauge string on it and/or a slightly different setup (string height for our purposes). It's really not an accident when a guitar is easy to play. Most of these things are made on assembly lines and they're all the same.

Your Fender can be "finished" by someone to lower the action and be easier to play. You can get a new setup on your guitar to change it. Usually one doesn't get a new setup on a lower end guitar because a new setup costs a large percentage of the price of the guitar to have it done by a professional.

One reason all guitars do not play the same is because not everyone wants low action for easy fretting. I personally like higher action for rhythm guitar playing. I like the way it sounds with higher action. Eventually you will form calluses and a little higher action will not bother you so much.

I think a big reason not many people here are concerned with playability is because most guitars here are built to specifications of previously built guitars and most are aware of how to do a basic setup of a guitar. So in the end, the guitar can be setup to the liking of the owner/player of the guitar.

I learned how to play on a $90 acoustic electric that gave me blisters on my fingers from hours of playing. My favorite guitar I play would most likely be considered firewood. Once you've built finger strength and calluses, you can play any guitar you like, you just might not like every guitar you play.

My main suggestion would be to get lighter gauged strings and go from there.


Sean

Don't let this post deter you from building a guitar, you should do that too, but don't think you need to build your own just to get the setup you like!

[tippie53]

building a guitar isn't like building a bird house , but you can do it. There are a few books out there that may help. Also look at the tutorial section here http://bluescreekguitars.com/tutorials.php This will get you started. You can figure about $450 for a kit and about that much in tooling . You need to let us know about what you do for a living and what tools you have.
One thing , you will get plenty of advice. We are here to help

[darren]

Sean has good points - this guitar might just need a quick setup. set neck relief with the trussrod, check the string height at the nut and adjust string height at the 12th fret with the saddle. Lots of heated debates on how exactly to do this, but that's the idea anyway. One of my favorite guitars is an '81 yamaha I bought for $100... plays and sounds great after going through the steps above...

[Tony_in_NYC]

Lynn,
Welcome to the forum. Nice to have you here. You will learn a whole bunch of good stuff. Not from me, but there are some smart guys here. LOL
The main reason why some guitars play better than others is this:
Because if the guitar says "Martin" or "Taylor" on the head stock, people will pay big bucks for it even if it plays like a pile of doggy doo.

OK..the real reason is because...well there are many reasons. One is the neck set angle. If it is off, the action will be too high or too low.
The "set up" of the guitar could have been done poorly from the factory. The truss rod could be too tight or too loose. However, you really should not be using the truss rod to adjust the action.
I had a $299 Takamine GS330-S before I built my first kit. That guitar had fantastic action and was a dream to play. It was a pretty good sounding guitar too. When I bought it, used on Ebay, it needed a professional set up. I had not yet decided to build a guitar, so I did not know how easy doing a set up was, so I paid a professional Luthier $50 to set it up for me. I live in New York City. Everything is more expensive here. Including breathing. If I paid $50 to have my git set up, it should not cost you much more than that. Unless of course, you need a neck reset. But if thats the case, it will cost more than the guitar, so this might be a future project for you once you learn to build.
My advice to you, would be to read up on setting the action on your guitar. You will need a good straight edge and a method for measuring tenths of an inch. Just buy the StewMac string action gauge. If you plan to build a guitar, or buy more guitars down the road, you will use it a lot.
I have done set ups for many people now that I know how, and thats the single most useful tool I bought for doing set ups.
Take a look at your guitar's saddle. Is it sticking up about 1/8th to 1/4th of an inch from the bridge? Good, you can lower the action at the saddle then. Measure the distance between the first fret and the bottom of the low E string. Do you have more than 2 tenths of an inch? Great! You can lower the action at the nut!!
If however, you have 1/8th inch of saddle sticking above the bridge or less and the action at the nut is pretty low, and the action at the 12th fret is half an inch...well you need a neck reset. If its a new guitar, return it. If its an old one, put it away and you can practice a neck reset on it after you learn to build.

In case you are not familiar with the term "action" with respect to a guitar, the "Action" of a guitar is the distance the strings are above the fret board. Most players shoot for the lowest possible action they can get without the strings buzzing when played. The lower the action, the easier it is to fret a note or chord, but if the action is too low, the strings will hit the fret board when strummed and cause buzzing. A good number to shoot for is about 3/32nds of clearance between the bottom of the low E string (the fattest string) anf the top of the 12th fret. 2/32nds on the high E. The rest of the strings in between will graduate in height between the low and high strings.
If you have any questions at all about anything in my post, please feel free to ask. I am more than happy to help.
FYI: A $100 guitar with a perfect set up and action will play better than a $2500 Martin D-28 with a bad set up. So the price of the guitar has little to do with playability. The two will sound very different, but thats a whole other story.
One more thing, if your action is low, but the truss rod is not adjusted properly or the frets are not all level, you will get buzzes at various places up and down the fret board, but my set up tips are assuming the fret board is flat and the frets have been leveled from the factory.

Tony

[Ben-Had]

Sean has good points - this guitar might just need a quick setup. set neck relief with the trussrod, check the string height at the nut and adjust string height at the 12th fret with the saddle. Lots of heated debates on how exactly to do this, but that's the idea anyway. One of my favorite guitars is an '81 yamaha I bought for $100... plays and sounds great after going through the steps above...

DITTO this. Find yourself a knowledgeable Luthier or guitar tech and have a proper setup done. I charge $35 for basic setup (I'm probably on the low side but I have lots of customers) that includes all adjustments if necessary i.e. adjust neck relief, adjust nut slot depth for proper height over 1st fret, adjust saddle height for action over the 12th fret. I am of the opinion newbies should have low action and XL or light gauge strings to make their playing easier. If it hurts to much to play they soon give up. You can always go back later and get a new saddle to raise the action if you want but I've been playing for over 40 years and like my action set at 3.5/64 ( high e) and 5/64 (low e). This is to low for some but right for me.

Tim B

PS good post Tony, I must've been typing mine as you were posting yours:)

[Lynn Livingston]

Lynn,

It sounds like you are struggling with high action and probably higher gauged strings. I would first try a lighter gauge string. Acoustic strings usually come in light, light-medium and medium. Medium strings are the thickest and most difficult to fret. Try changing to light strings and see how that suits you.

>> That could very well be the case. I recently restrung my Fender and I remember the clerk ask me what kind of strings I wanted. I didn't know what to ask for so I asked him the difference between them and he more or less told me lighter gauge strings are brighter, and heavier gauge strings are less bright. Well, I really thought the stock Fender strings were a little too bright, and I told him I would prefer a less bright sounding string. Bingo, I probably got heavier strings.<<

If you still seem to have a problem, you can lower the action on most guitars by tightening the truss rod. Not all guitars have a truss rod, but most do now. Higher end guitars usually can have lower action without getting buzzing on lower frets. When adjusting your action with the truss rod, make sure it does not create buzzing on the frets. I am assuming the buzzing that is occurring on your current guitar is because your fingers are not strong enough to completely fret all the strings, not from too low action.

>>Again, good point(s). I did today lower the action by adjusting the truss rod. Man, that adjustment seemed awfully hard to turn! But, I did lower the action at the 12th fret about a whole 1/16". It does in fact play easier, and I was able to eliminate some problem buzzes by being able to fret harder chords properly! Yea! Still seems it might need a bit more, but I will play this way a couple days.<<

I am not familiar with the Art & Lutherie brand, but it sounds like the salesman doesn't really know much about guitars or just wanted to get you out the door with one. If you played the same model at another store and it felt different, it was probably just a different gauge string on it and/or a slightly different setup (string height for our purposes). It's really not an accident when a guitar is easy to play. Most of these things are made on assembly lines and they're all the same.

>>Art & Lutherie guitars are made by Godin, which makes Seagulls too and maybe some others. I called them last week, they are in Canada; very nice folks to talk with. The guy really talked more about the Seagull brand than anything, but I really couldn't tell they were any more "playable" than there Art & Lutherie product; probably my inexperience.<<

Your Fender can be "finished" by someone to lower the action and be easier to play. You can get a new setup on your guitar to change it. Usually one doesn't get a new setup on a lower end guitar because a new setup costs a large percentage of the price of the guitar to have it done by a professional.

<< I may do that soon. I will try the adjustment I just made for an evaluation.>>

One reason all guitars do not play the same is because not everyone wants low action for easy fretting. I personally like higher action for rhythm guitar playing. I like the way it sounds with higher action. Eventually you will form calluses and a little higher action will not bother you so much.

>> I have already built calluses on my finger tips; to the point where I screw up typing all the time now because I cannot feel the very tips of my left had fingers! Plus, they stay sore all the time with only an hour or so playing a day on most days, a couple hours per days on the weekend. But, I would play more if I could stand it.<<

I think a big reason not many people here are concerned with playability is because most guitars here are built to specifications of previously built guitars and most are aware of how to do a basic setup of a guitar. So in the end, the guitar can be setup to the liking of the owner/player of the guitar.

I learned how to play on a $90 acoustic electric that gave me blisters on my fingers from hours of playing. My favorite guitar I play would most likely be considered firewood. Once you've built finger strength and calluses, you can play any guitar you like, you just might not like every guitar you play.

My main suggestion would be to get lighter gauged strings and go from there.


Sean

Don't let this post deter you from building a guitar, you should do that too, but don't think you need to build your own just to get the setup you like!

Thank you Sean for the info, insight and advice.

Lynn

[Lynn Livingston]

building a guitar isn't like building a bird house , but you can do it. There are a few books out there that may help. Also look at the tutorial section here http://bluescreekguitars.com/tutorials.php This will get you started. You can figure about $450 for a kit and about that much in tooling . You need to let us know about what you do for a living and what tools you have.
One thing , you will get plenty of advice. We are here to help

>>I've been looking through the tutorials here and on the website noted. Lots and lots of info to process.

I work as an OR equipment tech, which means I install, repair, maintenance and upgrade OR room equipment. That doesn't really qualify me to build a guitar, but hey, I just built my wife a dulcimer and it plays well. I built it from a kit, and it was a blast to build. Even though it was a kit, it was quite a bit of work and plenty of places to goof. It took me about 3 months of on and off working a few hours on the weekends, but I got it done and I am really proud of it now. I wasn't at first, but since she plays it constantly, and it stays in tune, and it gets good comments from the local dulcimer crowd, I've grown to be glad I built it.
I do have basic tools like a table saw, small bandsaw, disk, belt, and oscillating sander, drill press, small planer and jointer, a few different grinders, a wood lathe, a small metal lathe, a small 3 axis mill, measuring tools to include a few calipers, a dial indicator, telescoping gauges, and few other odds and ends.

What I don't have is talent with wood. I would much rather build something out of metal because I can fix anything I break, or re-do anything I do wrong. Not so with wood.

Thanks tippie53 for the advise.<<

[Lynn Livingston]

Sean has good points - this guitar might just need a quick setup. set neck relief with the trussrod, check the string height at the nut and adjust string height at the 12th fret with the saddle. Lots of heated debates on how exactly to do this, but that's the idea anyway. One of my favorite guitars is an '81 yamaha I bought for $100... plays and sounds great after going through the steps above...

I'm looking into this now. If I'm going to have a guitar, might as well learn how to take care of it and understand the setup of it also.
Thanks Darren!

Lynn

[Lynn Livingston]

Lynn,
Welcome to the forum. Nice to have you here. You will learn a whole bunch of good stuff. Not from me, but there are some smart guys here. LOL

Thanks, and you are so right; the 'net is indeed a great place for learning.

The main reason why some guitars play better than others is this:
Because if the guitar says "Martin" or "Taylor" on the head stock, people will pay big bucks for it even if it plays like a pile of doggy doo.

OK..the real reason is because...well there are many reasons. One is the neck set angle. If it is off, the action will be too high or too low.
The "set up" of the guitar could have been done poorly from the factory. The truss rod could be too tight or too loose. However, you really should not be using the truss rod to adjust the action.
I had a $299 Takamine GS330-S before I built my first kit. That guitar had fantastic action and was a dream to play. It was a pretty good sounding guitar too. When I bought it, used on Ebay, it needed a professional set up. I had not yet decided to build a guitar, so I did not know how easy doing a set up was, so I paid a professional Luthier $50 to set it up for me. I live in New York City. Everything is more expensive here. Including breathing. If I paid $50 to have my git set up, it should not cost you much more than that. Unless of course, you need a neck reset. But if thats the case, it will cost more than the guitar, so this might be a future project for you once you learn to build.
My advice to you, would be to read up on setting the action on your guitar. You will need a good straight edge and a method for measuring tenths of an inch. Just buy the StewMac string action gauge. If you plan to build a guitar, or buy more guitars down the road, you will use it a lot.
I have done set ups for many people now that I know how, and thats the single most useful tool I bought for doing set ups.
Take a look at your guitar's saddle. Is it sticking up about 1/8th to 1/4th of an inch from the bridge? Good, you can lower the action at the saddle then. Measure the distance between the first fret and the bottom of the low E string. Do you have more than 2 tenths of an inch? Great! You can lower the action at the nut!!
If however, you have 1/8th inch of saddle sticking above the bridge or less and the action at the nut is pretty low, and the action at the 12th fret is half an inch...well you need a neck reset. If its a new guitar, return it. If its an old one, put it away and you can practice a neck reset on it after you learn to build.

In case you are not familiar with the term "action" with respect to a guitar, the "Action" of a guitar is the distance the strings are above the fret board. Most players shoot for the lowest possible action they can get without the strings buzzing when played. The lower the action, the easier it is to fret a note or chord, but if the action is too low, the strings will hit the fret board when strummed and cause buzzing. A good number to shoot for is about 3/32nds of clearance between the bottom of the low E string (the fattest string) anf the top of the 12th fret. 2/32nds on the high E. The rest of the strings in between will graduate in height between the low and high strings.
If you have any questions at all about anything in my post, please feel free to ask. I am more than happy to help.
FYI: A $100 guitar with a perfect set up and action will play better than a $2500 Martin D-28 with a bad set up. So the price of the guitar has little to do with playability. The two will sound very different, but thats a whole other story.
One more thing, if your action is low, but the truss rod is not adjusted properly or the frets are not all level, you will get buzzes at various places up and down the fret board, but my set up tips are assuming the fret board is flat and the frets have been leveled from the factory.

Tony

Hi Tony and thanks for all the great info! That's a lot of info, sans fluff and to the point; the way it should be! I can understand this info and I'm looking forward to applying the advise given. I do have a good metal straight edge, and feeler gauges. But, I'm going to check out the string gauge you mention. It is probably much better since it is made to do just that.
Thanks again Tony, much appreciated.

Lynn