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Go-bar help please
Author
Post
piz

Total Topics: 3
Total Posts: 5
I have built my first go-bar deck, never used one before. For the bars I have 3/8" dowels.There is 21.5 " between floor and ceiling of the deck. I am wanting to glue top and then back to the rim.
I am having trouble with the bars. They are not too flexible and it seems I need at least 2 different lengths, and because of the relative inflexibility, it seems the lengths need to be pretty precise. With a dry clamp practice, it seems that one bar would fall out after I placed another near it. I am not sure what to do. I am thinking of trying another material instead of the wood dowels. The rim is in a mold. This is my second guitar kit, my first was Stew-mac and I did not use a mold, used the plywood brackett outside the rim and spool clamps that I made. That worked well. I am also considering a "screw-down" type of clamp method, but have not seen photos of how this is set up.
Generally, so far, I am not getting why the go-bar deck is popular and "easy" for some. Seems like a big pain so far.
What are your suggestions?

Thank you.

May 16, 10 | 7:08 pm
Hugh

Total Topics: 16
Total Posts: 309
3/8" seems kind of thick.

May 16, 10 | 7:22 pm
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
PITA-- agreed (my opinion)

We tossed out our G- decks twenty some years ago

Here's our Masterworks system

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/masterwork.html

-- similar to the process used by Jonathan Kinkead -- Note - his book is very good.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitarsest. 1978

May 17, 10 | 3:42 am
blues creek guitars Authorized Martin Repair Ctr

Total Topics: 52
Total Posts: 1011
A go bar deck can be a great tool but the wood dowels are not. Fiberglass rods work the best as they give you a consistent force. For gluing a top and back I use a body cawl , you can make this easy enough. You can get heavy foam floor mats . Take them and cut a rim pad to match your guitar. Double it them up on a plywood shape about like your gutiar.
Use bar clamps or weights . I also suggest you glue on the back first , that way you can clean up your glue , then to the top.

John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc.
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center

May 17, 10 | 3:52 am
longbow

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 74
Piz' I tried bamboo garden stakes, used for plants. They work good, you can saw them different lenghts to find the ones that will work. I also went out and cut branches off tree's...don't laugh, there springy and work in a pinch. Do a test run first so your ready. Bamboo is great stuff, wood and bamboo work making longbow's right? Fiberglass works great too, I cut up a old fishing pole and used that. A lot of guy's rip.. cut on a table saw strips of wood and cut them to the lenght they need. Do a trial run first and all is well. .002-cents and 1/2...

May 17, 10 | 5:17 am
longbow

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 74
I'm bad, I thought some of this was about G..BAR decks and braces. I would'nt think it was about glueing the top or back inside a GO..BAR deck. Some guy's do use the ceiling as a big G-BAR set up, when doing the tops and back. But Ken and John's way is best.

May 17, 10 | 5:56 am
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 332
I built my own go bar deck about a year and a half ago, and used dowels like yours in it. It wasn't easy to use, sure. in fact, it sucked.

21.5" is pretty short. mine was 24" and I had the same experience you did. it was not a good system. another drawback to the dowels is that they roll. you don't want something that has a built-in tendency to roll right on to your work.

I have a new "deck" that's 36", and the top part of it is much sturdier, ...it's a steel beam.

John is right, fiberglass rods are best. my next-best weekend-warrior (I am not cheap, I'm thrifty) solution are 1/4"x3/4" ripped strips of spruce. I made them from $0.98 pieces of SPF from menards. they work darn good.

Once you get a better setup it will be easy to use, and it will work. Check out this video, especially what happens at 1'55"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2SuYAYJ5oQ

May 17, 10 | 6:13 am
piz

Total Topics: 3
Total Posts: 5
Thank you all for your helpfulness! I will check out all the suggestions, and maybe come back with more questions.

May 17, 10 | 3:36 pm
Kevin Sjostrand

Total Topics: 84
Total Posts: 981
Piz,
Hi there. I use 3/16" fiberglass rods in my deck, and they work fabulously. I have tried wood dowels, and that is a disaster. They do not spring back, and therefore loose the tense they initially place. You don't want to use those. I was just given about 50 bamboo stakes about 3/16" and 36" long that I am going to try in the deck when I need some shorter rods to clamp backs and tops to the rims. I'm excited that they seem to be very strong, flexible, and spring right back to straight. I find the go-bar deck effective, quick and pretty simple to use. Like Ken Cierp says above, they moved on years ago to other methods, so you might want to check out his process, I'm sure it works great!

Kevin

May 17, 10 | 7:55 pm
longbow

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 74
I just looked at stew mac prices for fiberglass rods....5.89 each. To much for me, I'll use any thing before I pay that much. Also I can't believe they want 100.00 bucks for a GO BAR deck, all it is .....is just a wooden box. That one allways got me. If you can't build your own box, good luck making a guitar. Wait that is only the hardware, no plywood. I think I'm cranky this morning, I need more coffee.

May 18, 10 | 4:10 am
blues creek guitars Authorized Martin Repair Ctr

Total Topics: 52
Total Posts: 1011
You will find them on my Blues Creek Guitars Site for $32 for 15 of them.
http://www.bluescreekguitars.com look in the catalog section.
thanks

John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc.
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center

May 18, 10 | 6:54 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
I wonder if it might help in your top plate to drill very shallow dimples for the ends of your go bars...prevent slippage at the top...? Lay out a pencil grid, drilling should take half a second each. I don't use a gobar deck, but would think that might help.

May 18, 10 | 9:15 am
blues creek guitars Authorized Martin Repair Ctr

Total Topics: 52
Total Posts: 1011
No No No Use vinyl pads for the go bars or use a cawl to let the go bars attach to. I have 1/2 square pieces of wood that I will use to span the finer braces so I have a larger area for the go bar to hang onto. This way you have more secure clamping . Drilling holes isn't the best idea.
The advantage to the span cawls is they take the lumps , and you can put as much clamping as you need. Keep things simple

John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc.
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center

May 18, 10 | 10:13 am
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
You can keep the top ends from slipping by gluing a piece of carpet to the underside of the top, if you have a problem with it. I have never had a problem myself.

Bill

May 18, 10 | 10:18 am
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 332
If piz's bars are falling down after inserting another, that's because his deck isn't sturdy enough. a sturdy deck should hold the bars in place, no problem.

I used a cut-up inner tube (into a single long thin strip of rubber) running around the edge of my top, when I glued it on with my deck. it kept things slip free. (Then, later on, I used the same inner tube to hold my binding after gluing).



May 18, 10 | 10:29 am
DonB

Total Topics: 20
Total Posts: 240
I bought my fiberglass rods and vinyl end pieces from a kite dealer and they were very inexpensive. They even cut them to length for me. Here is the link:
http://www.goodwinds.com/merch/list.shtml?cat=fiberglass.solidfiberglass

Good luck!

Don

May 21, 10 | 10:30 am
John B

Total Topics: 15
Total Posts: 76
I have used strips of Poplar as go bars for my last 2 guitars. Its fairly flexible and springs back to shape pretty well. If you have a band-saw or table saw, you can make all you need for a few bucks.. I made 15+ out of 1/4" x 5" x 48" strip purchased at HD for about $3.50. I also purchased 2 fiberglass rods for $2 each which netted me 2 rods.. In my opinion, the hardwood strips are much easier to work with as the bend is directional and controlled.

You can easily experiment with the proper tension by adjusting the width of the strips you cut. As these are cheap to make, you won't be too concerned about cutting custom lengths for each particular use.
My 2 cents
John


May 23, 10 | 7:11 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Ditto John B

Again we don't use GBD's any longer but when we did, for us wood strips worked good -- we had them color coded with magic marker to indicate what size went in with what brace location. Bill Cory's suggestion using a piece of carpet on the top of the deck to prevent slipping, sounds real good to me.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

May 23, 10 | 7:18 am
blues creek guitars Authorized Martin Repair Ctr

Total Topics: 52
Total Posts: 1011
I also like the carpet Idea , very simple. I am not a big fan of wood for go bars but in a pinch they will work. I do use Gobars and I also have a vacuum bag system. I prefer the Gobar for Hot Hide glue application and the use of the fiberglass rods.
This is one of those deals that find what works the best for you. There is always more than one way to do the same job

John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc.
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center

May 23, 10 | 10:26 am
Todd Stock

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 6
Go-Bar 101:

- A column in axial loading will buckle at the Critical Buckling Load; slender columns like a go-bar have critical loads defined by the Euler Column Buckling equation:

Critical Buckling Load = ((pi^2)*modulus of elasticity*moment of inertia)/(length^2)

- Critical load is inversely proportional to the square of the length and proportional to the 4th power of the radius

- The force applied by a go-bar is constant once the critical buckling load is reached

In plain language:

- Double the length of a go-bar and applied pressure drops to 1/4 of the original value (e.g., 3/16" x 24 inch bar applies 8 lbs; 3/16" x 48" bar applies 2 lbs)

- Double the diameter of the bar and applied pressure increases by a factor of 16

- Once a 3/16" x 24" 'glass go-bar is deflected 3/4" or so, it's at the critical buckling load and will not apply any additional force with further deflection

What this means:

- A 3/16" x 24" bar will apply about 8 lbs; a 1/4" x 24" bar will apply about 25 lbs of pressure - too much - so lengthening the bar to the point where pressure is back in the 8 lb range is appropriate.

- Using the fact that P is proportional to R^4/L^2, the length needed to produce an 8 lb force with a 1/4" bar is about 42"

- A deck used with 3/16" x 24" bars should be about 23" between the stuff to be clamped and the upper deck; build to about 28" between upper and lower deck surfaces and use a 4" riser platform when working on plates, etc. Remove the platform when closing the box.

For practical demonstration of the effect of column length on force applied, try bending a 1/2" long piece of spaghetti by applying pressure with fingertips....stop before driving the pasta through your finger. Now try the same test with a full length strand. Longer = lower Euler buckling load.

Jun 03, 10 | 2:50 am
Bob Cefalu

Total Topics: 2
Total Posts: 10
Thanks Todd. Very useful information. Glad to see you posting here.

Jun 04, 10 | 2:15 am
piz

Total Topics: 3
Total Posts: 5
Solution found!

First , thank you all so much for your help. I have learned much, and appreciate every comment as they have all been given with a helpful attitude, which I do not take for granted.

I did use the carpet, and my deck does seem a bit unstable, but I left it that way.
What I used for the bars was what I think are fiber glass rods, that I bought at Home Depot under the guise of "driveway reflectors" They are 48" long. 1/4" rods with a red reflector on one end (which I did not use). For $2.28 each I could make 2 bars. I put it together yesterday and just now removed the bars, and it looks good!

Wow, this is one creative, problem solving adventure!

Jun 28, 10 | 7:16 pm
Kevin Sjostrand

Total Topics: 84
Total Posts: 981
Piz,
It sounds like you got yourself a working go-bar deck. Congratulations! I really like the fiberglass rods. I have some bamboo rods I'm going to try on my next build, they seem to have enough flex and memory to work too.
When you have a chance, shoot some pics and share.

Kevin

Jun 28, 10 | 7:55 pm
blues creek guitars Authorized Martin Repair Ctr

Total Topics: 52
Total Posts: 1011
A friend of mine watched me in the shop and to me , building guitars looks hard , but it is harder than it looks
Glad you found a simple solution

John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc.
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center

Jun 29, 10 | 2:55 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
I try not to tell people that John, interested parties are not that encouraged....;)

Jun 29, 10 | 6:21 am
piz

Total Topics: 3
Total Posts: 5
Thank you ,Kevin. Regarding the bamboo: I bought a couple of packs of the 2' garden stakes. I was encouraged when I first tried to use them, as they were way better than the wooden dowels. They came close to working for me, but did not work out. I think because my deck is a bit shaky and unstable, and the bamboo pieces are not all the same diameter or flexibility. So I became frustrated after practicing and labeling each one for its specific placement and as I worked my way around the rim, previously placed rods would fall out and have to be replaced, and sometimes shimmed. I just never could get it to work in a reasonable amount of time for using hot hide glue. This was my experience for what it's worth, +/- $0.02.


Jun 29, 10 | 12:28 pm
Kevin Sjostrand

Total Topics: 84
Total Posts: 981
The reason the rods fall out is your deck top is "giving" under the pressure so is not able to withstand the pressure exerted. The fiberglass rods, because how they flex, although they still can exert alot of pressure, seem to work better.
I have a similar problem, and need to "beef up" the top of my deck. You could also stack some weight, like a bunch of bricks on top.

Kevin

Jun 29, 10 | 2:34 pm



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