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Another cheapo solution: this time with a bit for binding
Author
Post
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 338
Here comes the guy that is also looking for a cheaper solution for everything.

I've heard it's possible to make a flush cut router bit into a rabbeting bit by swapping out a smaller bearing.

so...


Freud flush cut router bit 42-106

...plus...

Whiteside bearing part number B2, 3/8 outside diameter, 3/16 inside diameter

...equals ...

$15 for a bit that will cut a 1/16" binding channel?

I know that the stew mac bits are better to have. What I'm wondering is if this will work.

Apr 17, 10 | 1:24 pm
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 332
Well the test-on-scrap went ok. the bearing left a teeny groove below the channel but i suppose that is typical. Developing...

Apr 18, 10 | 6:51 am
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 332
It worked like a dream! No tear out anywhere. Perfect binding channels.








Apr 18, 10 | 5:35 pm
Kevin Sjostrand

Total Topics: 84
Total Posts: 981
Hey Martin, that does look very good. Is this for plastic binding?

Kevin

Apr 18, 10 | 7:19 pm
longbow

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 74
Martin, I took the bearing off mine, after I gave it a hair cut. Then I used just the bit with the router's adjustable roller stop. I also made a machine like the stewmac binding cutter. I used it sunday and it came out pretty good, the bit worked so good on cutting off the excess that I tried it on the binding channel. It cut nice and clean and this one is a cut a way. By the way it looks like the same sappele wood I have. Nice job on yours.....Dave L

Apr 19, 10 | 4:36 am
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 332
Thanks, Dave. Kevin, I have rosewood binding, 1/16" thick.

Apr 19, 10 | 6:21 am
dviss

Total Topics: 18
Total Posts: 165
I've been looking at this... but then what are you going to do for your purfling?

Go back to an adjustable stop and risk a cut too deep or shallow?

I love your thinking here and am THIS close to ordering that same bearing and bit.

Darren

Apr 27, 10 | 3:47 pm
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 332
I'm building two guitars for friends right now, and neither wanted purfling. So this set up is doing great for what I need it for, at the moment.

later on, I'll most likely be buying a downcut spiral bit and modifying my jig, by adding an adjustable piece with two bearings on it, which will be able to cover all of my needs. I stole the idea from Arnt Rian.




Apr 27, 10 | 8:28 pm
dviss

Total Topics: 18
Total Posts: 165
what about using an lmi bearing? same inside diameter and designed for a .5 cutting edge. At least you're saving the cost of the lmi cutter by using the flush cut bit, right?

Darren

Apr 28, 10 | 4:38 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Hmmmmm ---- we have had these available for a very long time, you can only wonder where Arnt Rian got the idea ?


http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/BEARINGGUIDEDATTACHMENT.html

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/portattach.html

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

Apr 28, 10 | 4:59 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
I should add that Martin's design is much like our first generation units --- and there are problems with control and accuracy when trying to do multiple channel depths -- tipping side to side and for aft is also an issue. For what its worth.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

Apr 28, 10 | 5:14 am
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 332
Arnt's uses a bearing. I got the idea to add an adjustable piece, with a bearing, from Arnt.

"there are problems with control and accuracy when trying to do multiple channel depths -- tipping side to side and for aft is also an issue."

this statement is a conclusion. where is the evidence in support of the conclusion? How precisely does my unit, or the work, tip from side to side, or for and aft? they don't.

My binding channel was very accurate. The only mistake, I believe, happened when I didn't keep the work always directly in front of the unit. I got a tiny bit of unevenness, and only in one small spot. Now I know not to do that. I couldn't be more happy with a first effort.

Apr 28, 10 | 5:54 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Martin,

We are at the sixth or seventh gereration of our binding attachment (sold hundreds) we repect the feed back from our customers and are a continuous improvement company --- also look at the attachment that Bill Cory once sold -- you will note some major differences. You may be very satified with your unit -- but I can tell you from our experience there will be problems.

You have already mentioned a problem -- "I got a tiny bit of unevenness, and only in one small spot." If that uneveness is a channel that is too deep you've got a mess on your hands -- I know for a fact that your design will allow channels that are too deep and too tall (been there done it - corrected it).

Please don't take this personal --- my comments are based on real world, real time conclusions -- you have every right to do as you please.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978


Apr 28, 10 | 6:23 am
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 332
Nothing has been or will be taken personally. but, when you say there will be problems (another conclusion presented with no accompanying evidence), I'd like to know precisely what and how, because it could be very useful information. I'd like to not just hear the conclusions, but also the reasoning behind them.

it sounds like your criticisms are directed more at the jig itself than the use of a flush bit with a smaller bearing. the jig is not my design. it's the commonly used Ribbecke jig.

the unit tips from side to side, how? the unit moves for and aft, how? the design allows channels that are too deep or too tall, ...how?

Sure, I mentioned a single problem, but I also mentioned the simple correction. thus, no more problem. there was a tiny bit of unevenness, due to not keeping the body directly in front of the bit. this resulted in a channel that was too shallow, not one that was too deep.



if I get great results, with channels that are ideal, as well as even, then obviously the end justifies the means. in the future I'll use a better bit, and then it will be even better.


Apr 28, 10 | 6:46 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Martin sounds like you want to argue -- I am not interrested in doing that -- I am glad you are happy with your attachment and hope you make many fine guitars with it.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

Apr 28, 10 | 6:58 am
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 332
No, I was interested in what the reasoning was, because I am unaware and I would really like to know.

Webster says "argue" means: "to give reasons for or against something," "to give evidence of," "to consider the pros and cons of," "to prove or try to prove by giving reasons," "to persuade by giving reasons."

I haven't wanted to argue, I've wanted YOU to! 8^)

Because the thread started out as a presentation only of the bit idea, without my jig being pictured, maybe you've made assumptions about what my jig is?

It's a Ribbecke jig. But, with the addition of Arnt's adjustable bearing, and a different bit, a spiral downcut bit, it will become a lot like the one that Chris Paulick uses in this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ve_PmQMSnQQ

Darren asked what I plan to do for purfling. That's what I plan to do.

Apr 28, 10 | 7:17 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Simply look at the KMG attachments and Bill Cory's attachment and you will easily see what is missing in your unit. I have no reason to prove anything to you, you can take or leave our years of experience --- its your choice. We have made and sold huindreds (maybe with Cory's thousands) all over the world --- you have made one.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

Apr 28, 10 | 7:42 am
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Ken -- I didn't have a dog in this fight, but you have mentioned my router guide twice ... not sure of your meaning about it.

It sounds as if you are being a little bit defensive when you have no reason to be; Martin's statement that he has a good, accurate unit takes nothing away from your guide unit. We're all "inventors" of sorts.

My router guide, of which I sold exactly 47 units, worked just fine for me and everyone else who has used it -- I never got a single complaint, even a minor one. I only stopped offering them because each one took me two hours to make, one at a timeby hand, and my "profit" was ten dollars on each unit. Obviously not worth it. I hope you are making more than that on yours! We all develop our own techniques and tools.

Martin -- your unit looks a lot like the one marketed for awhile by Tim Metcalf. I have one of the few he sold, and I have cut very accurate fineline purfling grooves with it. I'm sure yours works well! With the changeable bearing feature, yours looks to be the superior one of the two.

Bill

Apr 28, 10 | 8:02 am
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 332
Correction, I have made one unit, which is a copy of a unit, that who-knows-how-many-people-have-also-used, as well.

Plainly stated, what is missing?

This thread was about a cheap tweak to an inexpensive flush cut bit, in order to rout bindings.

You have made it be about something else, which as anyone can see, has so far, been pointless. You've stated repeatedly, that there are alleged flaws in the system I have chosen to use. But when pressed for an explanation, you dodge and obfuscate. Your only (non-)argument yet presented, has been an irrational appeal to your own authority, due to experience.

Let's be honest, you took this thread as an opportunity to advertise your own methods, and to toot your own horn for coming up with something that I said Arnt did, first. (Even though you hadn't). There's nothing wrong your system. And there's nothing wrong with the one I chose.

If you want to keep repeating that there's something wrong with how I choose to do, or will do things, just state what it is. Should be easy enough to do. Certainly much easier, than stating over and over that there's a problem, prompting me over and over (and over), to ask what in the blazes it is.

Tell me what it is, I'll laugh it off for having being so daft, and then eagerly change to yours.


Apr 28, 10 | 8:30 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
The out riggers on your unit represent a quantum improvement in the process. Anything that eleminates the chance of human error is worth investigating - right? -- that is what my comments are about --- no defense of anything. Rather an invitation to copy enhancements that work.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978


Apr 28, 10 | 8:36 am
dviss

Total Topics: 18
Total Posts: 165
Martin,
I was just watching Paulick's video yesterday. funny to see you bring it up. I think i'll try LMI's bearings with the flush cutter bit for my purflings. It might be a while but I'll definitely let you know how it goes. Thanks for sharing the idea.

my build is going sloooooowwwwww. :)

Apr 28, 10 | 9:36 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Martin,

Fearing to sound like a complete dumb a** are you using this device in a tower or by hand?

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

Apr 28, 10 | 10:30 am
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 332
It's in a tower.

Apr 28, 10 | 11:04 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Is that mentioned here somewhere early on?

Apr 28, 10 | 11:15 am
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 332
Not until about half way down. I started the thread to talk about the bit, not the jig.

Here's the bit, with the smaller bearing.



And here's the jig.




Mahogany top, back sides. 1/16" rosewood bindings.








Apr 28, 10 | 11:20 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
So did you ever look at the stuff (links) I sent? All about hand held attachments? If I had known/realized it was for a tower I would have had no comment ---- Sorry to have wasted our time.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

Apr 28, 10 | 11:36 am
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 332
The jig itself represents another "cheapo solution!" I made it almost entirely out of junk that I had lying around, and it works beautifully. I did buy sliding drawer hardware, two springs, the wingnut and bolts, and the uhmw donut (from John Hall).










Apr 28, 10 | 11:39 am
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 332
Did I look? Yes I did. I don't know what is best, the absolute solid perpendicularness of the tower method, or the follow-the-contour-as-you-need-to-handiness of the handheld. I suppose the answer is it depends. if I get more serious about this I suppose I will have to own both.

Apr 28, 10 | 11:43 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
When we were selling the towers, the complaint I got was about the ridge/indentation the guide left on the soft wood top/soundboard. Other than that customers seemed like them --- except for the price we had to charge to make a buck.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

Apr 28, 10 | 11:58 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Martin,

I am thinking we still have a disconnect "none" of my comments were about comparing the two methods (tower/handheld) only that your device "if used as a handheld attachment" in my opinion would have some issues. Nothing more.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

Apr 28, 10 | 12:26 pm
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 332
I understand that. I compared the two methods, just because they are mentioned here, not necessarily as a response to anything.

My tower jig made some little marks too, when I tested. That's why I put the tape on the top, back and sides of my body. I did hear some feedback from people about cutting thru tape, but I didn't experience anything bad. I put the tape on top so that it was all even and the donut would ride along on it evenly. I didn't double it up anywhere. I also pulled the tape on and off the roll several times to relieve the stick, so I wouldn't pull up fibers when I removed it.

Apr 28, 10 | 12:45 pm
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
OK let me refine the points in my comments --- I am not sure why Martin choose to write a scathing diatribe rather than post a few words to clarify that his device was for use on a stabilized structure and not a handheld device. Simply reading my posts would indicate my design concerns were relative to a hand held router attachment. Including links and references to other units.

The fact is the acrylic attachment shown here has much merit and could easily be modified for use as hand held device. However, as I posted before there would be some stability issues, which can be easily overcome. Again, I invite those thinking about making this device to take a look at Bill Cory’s design as well as the attachments posted on the KMG website. I believe you’ll get some ideas for some simple base modifications which would make this a first rate design for as a hand held attachment.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

Apr 29, 10 | 4:55 am
Hugh

Total Topics: 16
Total Posts: 309
I thought of that swapping the guide bearing for another and never could get the 2 to fit each other. Have you found some that do? Are the two in the first post compatible?

Apr 29, 10 | 5:54 pm
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 332
Yes they are! That's what I used.

Apr 30, 10 | 1:03 am
longbow

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 74
So guys teach me something here, by having two rollers or a roller deeper down into the center of the body, that helps with a more even cut? I have an adjustable bearing stop, only one, I could move it down, I just copied stewmac's tower deal with the bearing just below the binding channel. I have'nt seen the others only ken's, I thought the longer stop was to help hand held cutting. So the longer stops really helps? Will it stabilize the tool as it's cutting, will it compensate for the body's average squareness? PS I'm using a tower and the flush cut bit wt. out the bearing, I'll change bits later.....Thanks Dave L.

Apr 30, 10 | 3:36 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
That's a good observation and question Dave -- The tower is rigid and keeps the bit perpendicular, I was wondering that myself, the long double bearing design for a stationary unit seems redundant --- perhaps someone has tried both.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

Apr 30, 10 | 4:11 am
Adaboy

Total Topics: 64
Total Posts: 509
On the tower units, some folks counter-weight them so they don't put so much pressure on the top which might dent the top. Just a thought.

Apr 30, 10 | 5:22 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Yep --- the ones we made had springs and little turnbuckle to adjust the tension and balance --- rubber bands work too.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

Apr 30, 10 | 5:27 am
longbow

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 74
I use a old 2 lb. barbell , with a roller on top of the tower, I saw it on U-tube it works alright. I still would like some feed back on the stop, any idea's chime in. PS it just got warm in wisconsin..wow..maybe I can spray today, it should get over 70*

Apr 30, 10 | 5:40 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Dave,
You know I got to thinking --- our tower units that were made for a bearing router bit did not have any other vertical guide -- it simply tracked with the bearing on the bit. However the ones with a straight bit did have a seperate guide, about an inch tall, the same as our current KMG table models.

I believe ?? the LMII towers track on just the bit bearing.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

Apr 30, 10 | 7:09 am
Hugh

Total Topics: 16
Total Posts: 309
I built an all-mahogany j45 that plays easy and sounds good, but it's ugly. Yours looks good. Which finish did you use?

Apr 30, 10 | 7:48 am
longbow

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 74
Ken, I think Chris Paulick's has only one, like mine except the one I have came with the router and slids up -down-in-out. I changed the bearing to make work better, anyway stewmac has one also, it's on the bit, but rides in the same place as mine. Thats why I asked.

Apr 30, 10 | 10:40 am
Adaboy

Total Topics: 64
Total Posts: 509
Martin, from what I can see in the pics, it looks like the tower unit did a nice job on the purfling channels. I'm building a jig now to route my binding/purfling channels. I hope to complete it this weekend so maybe I can post pics next week sometime. Of course, it's nothing new......just twists on existing themes.

Apr 30, 10 | 12:45 pm
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 332
Looking forward to seeing what you come up with Darryl, please post pics!

Hugh: my all mahogany guitar is still unfinished. It is pretty wood, though.

Dave: I'll probably use one bearing.

Apr 30, 10 | 1:25 pm
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
I am closing this thread at the reuest of the OP.

Bill

Apr 30, 10 | 4:08 pm



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