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They sent different gun
Author
Post
longbow

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 74
I ordered a 14.99 harbor freight spray gun, I know its cheap but a few guys here had good luck wt. it. They sent Touch-up spray G same as 00086. There both called touch up spray guns, They look almost the same but, the one I ordered I think could be shot at 30 psi and this one is rec. for 45-60 psi. Can I shoot nitro- lac. at 45 psi or call them and send it back? I've seen it said 30-35 psi recomended for nitro, what can I get away with? I cann't believe they sent me something else without even a email. It was 22.00 I could of gotten Stew mac's for 42.00. I know we go over this stuff again and again but could someone help me out about psi and nitro? ..... Thanks Dave L

Apr 16, 10 | 3:01 am
Freeman

Total Topics: 27
Total Posts: 668
I have never shot nitro in my little jamb gun, but I do shoot both SM waterbased and KTM-9 at 40 psi. It is my recollection that Erlewine recommend 40-45 psi for nitro - you can check in his book. My gun is a cheapie from one of the autoparts stores, I believe the brand is Husky.

My first two kits were finished with rattle can nitro in a spray booth where I work, but that was such a hassle that I've completely switched to waterbased, which I can shoot with my home compressor in a cardboard box booth with no ventilation or spark worry. I use a simple dust mask instead of the full on carbon canister, clean up with soap and water (and denatured alcohol). The waterborn finish is almost as good as nitro, but a whole lot more friendly to shoot.

This isn't a great picture of the gun, but it is hanging in the upper corner of the "booth"

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f387/Freeman_Keller/Mandolin/Mando_back_finishing.jpg

Apr 20, 10 | 12:48 pm
longbow

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 74
Thanks for piping in freeman, did you think the W.B. stuff sanded or finished better in some way or was it just the nature of nitro that sent you on your way to use water base ? Also I hate to drag Ken and Dennis into this, but if you guys read this, back in june-09 Dennis W. posted that he liked the gun I was trying to get, the thing is the one they sent me is for 45-60 psi. not 30 like the one I ordered. I just wondered what they thought. Anyway Freeman this almost made me chase my tail and go wt. EM- T. 6000 WB. and try that on #2....#1 is started wt. nitro already. By the way The nozzel size is 1.5 mm on this one. Freeman I know this question is in the air but, what do you think about sound between WB and nitro? Nice pic's and thanks for the info. ....Dave L.

Apr 21, 10 | 6:33 am
Freeman

Total Topics: 27
Total Posts: 668
I grew up building hot rods with 20 or 30 or more coats of lacquer hand sanded between every coat, but nobody does that anymore. For my first two home builds I wanted to emulate what Martin and all the other traditional finishes used - so I used StewMac rattlle cans of nitro. I actually shot the first one in the garage - it is dangerous, a hazard to my health and the environment, stinks like crazy (left the cars smelly for weeks) but gave a beautiful finish. Since there is a paint booth where I work, I did the next one there - a total hassle trying to lay down 24 coats on some sort of schedule on my lunch breaks - but at least I wasn't in danger of blowing up the garage or killing the birds.

Here is nitro on my second, the little white marks are because I didn't pore fill adequately

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f387/Freeman_Keller/Classical/Classical-backdetail.jpg

When I did the mandolin I wanted to try a sun burst and needed to come back to working in my garage, so I tried the stewmac water based products with very acceptable results. As I said in my previous post, it is safe, easy to work with and clean up, not toxic to either me or the environment, and gives a very acceptable finish. Here are two that were done with waterborn over Stewmac's pore filler (two applications)

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f387/Freeman_Keller/IMG_2021.jpg

For the latest one I have switched to KTM-9 over Z-poxy (two applications). I did a test strip with different pore fillers which I will post when I've buffed it. I haven't done the final polish on the KTM-9 but the final coats looked good. I figured that if it is good enough for Mike Doolin, it would be good enough for me. I did get some witness lines on the mando, but have learned to shoot a coat of alcohol between each coat (leave some alcohol in your gun, shoot a wash, empty the gun and put your water based in it - while you are filling the gun the alcohol will flash and leave the surface slightly tacky - shoot the next coat on that and the coats will melt nicely).

Specific answers to your questions - nitro is not an acceptable finish for a home builder unless you have a full on paint booth with air filtering, explosion proof wiring and carbon canister filter. If you do, you probably don't need to be asking the questions about spray guns. However I'll check Erlewine's book tonight to see what pressure he recommends.

I have no way to A/B the sound. There have been many threads about the effects of finish on the sound - it seems like there are as many opinions as there are posters. My instruments sound fine to me and I am sure that many things contribute more than the type of finish. They also look "good enough" to me - better than many of the other amateur finishes that I've seen.

I'll post some pics of the KTM-9 over different pore fillers in a week or two and I'll check the recommended pressure for nitro tonight

Apr 22, 10 | 6:11 am
Freeman

Total Topics: 27
Total Posts: 668
OK, check Erlewine. For solvent based lacquers (eg. nitro) he recommends 35 psi for top coats (generally thinned 1:1) and says in general to use the lowest pressure necessary to atomize the finish and get it to flow. If you see orange peel, increase the pressure. Fluid control and fan control knobs need to be coordinated and are based on your spraying techique and the size of the piece you are spraying. He says to get a heavy soft wet spray open the fluid valve and reduce the pressure to 25-30 psi.

He suggests a 1.8 mm tip for a siphon gun for all finishes.

As I say, I have no experience with solvent in my little gun, so you will have to experiment on your own. You might look in the archives at MIMF or ask in their finish forum.

Apr 22, 10 | 3:46 pm
longbow

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 74
Freeman, thanks for doing all this work to help me... really. I knew the sound thing was out there but , I just don't want it in the back of my head, had to ask. I learned a lot, I have'nt seen that alcohol trick anywere. Do you have to clean all the WB. out after, say first coat, of the bottom jar with water and soap, then put alcohol in again ? then for each coat? Sorry now you got me trying to learn your alcohol secret. It seems two material cups would be nice for that. PS I'm waiting for the temp. to go up in wisconsin to try gun, I can not wait anymore, it was 39 degrees this morning. Will try to shoot outside in root celler soon..

Apr 23, 10 | 6:20 am
Freeman

Total Topics: 27
Total Posts: 668
Long, there are several good articles about KTM-9 at LMI, but the best is by Mike Doolin

http://www.doolinguitars.com/waterborne/instructions.html

Note his finish schedule - pore fill, level shoot three or four coats a day. Dump the extra KTM-9 back in the can, wash the gun and cup with warm soapy water. If you leave water in it there are parts of the gun that may rust. Mike says to fill the cup with denatured alcohol, shoot a little out the nozzle and put it away for the night. Next day you level sand (320 or so), shoot a very light coat of alcohol on the guitar, dump the cup out and fill with your KTM-9. During the few minutes you are filling the cup the surface will take on a slightly tacky feel - shoot right on that. You will want to shoot about and hour apart - you can leave the KTM in the cup but I dump it out and clean the gun each time (it is so simple with water and the alcohol). Ideally you do all of your coats one day apart start to finish.

When I used to shoot SM waterbased I didn't know about the alcohol trick and I did get some witness lines (sanding thru some layers). With the KTM I had to miss several days between coats and I was very worried about witness lines - sanding to 320, a mist of alcohol and bingo! looks great.

Last comment, LMI sells KTM-9 in 8 oz cans - that isn't enough. Buy two cans, you'll use part of the second but because the cans are small the finish won't go bad before your next project.

I'll be doing my final color sanding and buff this w/e and will post some pictures

Apr 29, 10 | 11:16 am
longbow

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 74
Freeman, your a nice guy for doing all that work for me, thanks. I had'nt seen those articals but it makes sence now. I was planning on trying EM-6000 but I hear it's almost the same. Nice trick, I'll watch for pic's...thanks again PS. how did you know that was my real name?

Apr 30, 10 | 4:27 am
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 257
Freeman, when I was brushing on Emtech 6000 on my first, I would sand, then use a blue towel with alcohol on it to clean off the dust, etc. before brushing on another coat. I thought I felt a bit of tack. Do you think wiping with alcohol might have the same effect as you get with the spray? I could wipe it down, then go immediately to spraying the finish.
Bob

Apr 30, 10 | 5:45 am
longbow

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 74
I thought the same thing

May 01, 10 | 4:29 am



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