Deprecated: Function mysql_numrows() is deprecated in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 333

Deprecated: Function mysql_numrows() is deprecated in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 333
<br /> <b>Deprecated</b>: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in <b>/home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php</b> on line <b>236</b><br /> <br /> <b>Deprecated</b>: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in <b>/home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php</b> on line <b>236</b><br /> <br /> <b>Deprecated</b>: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in <b>/home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php</b> on line <b>236</b><br /> <br /> <b>Deprecated</b>: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in <b>/home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php</b> on line <b>236</b><br /> <br /> <b>Deprecated</b>: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in <b>/home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php</b> on line <b>236</b><br /> <br /> <b>Deprecated</b>: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in <b>/home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php</b> on line <b>236</b><br /> New build, big mistake

You are currently viewing Kit Guitar Forum archives. To view the current forums go to www.KitGuitarsForum.com/board



Log-in
Register
Members



Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236

Deprecated: mysql_escape_string(): This function is deprecated; use mysql_real_escape_string() instead. in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/db/db.mysql.php on line 236
New build, big mistake
Author
Post
DanB

Total Topics: 50
Total Posts: 273
Well, 4 days ago (22nd-25th so far) I started a new guitar, basically from scatch. The guy I had gotten the walnut kit from had bent the sides and roughly thicknessed the back and top. I was/still am, shooting to see how much I could possibly get done in 7 full days. I was actually holding out on showing any of the progress because I didn't want to jinx the job I was happy with before I made the mistakes that I knew was coming. Well, here it is.

I closed the box, and was doing the last step that really had any potential risks... Routing out the bindings. Although I've never had any problems with the bindings before I ripped out a good part of the top and had to make a patch to fill it. How that worked out, I have no idea yet, it's still clamped up now. It could have been a couple different things to blame. First of all, the reason it actually ripped out like it did is 100% my fault, I had been routing on lower speeds as I usually had, and decided to try a higher speed because in my head it'd cut smoother... Well apparently the faster it is, it still catches and tears out, only it has the power to shoot the piece and rip it off your guitar (Yea, I'm sure that's a no brainer, but what can you do..).

Anyhow, it could have been a combination of potentially a dulling bit, lack of glue in that spot of the rim, too high of speeds, and probably others.

Here's some progression pictures, plus the mistake its self. The guitar is a Fir top with a walnut rosette, and walnut back and sides. The dimensions are goofy, I underestimated the depth of a deep body OM. It's an OM with closer depth dimensions of a dread, but I'm honestly ok with that. If anything I'm more curious to see how it would sound than anything, maybe too muddy? I have maple bindings that will be going on this guitar as well, well... If I can finish routing the channels with out more of this ;D.

Here's the pictures:











Mistake:



We'll see how that patches out tomorrow,

-Dan

Mar 25, 10 | 7:42 pm
Running Dog

Total Topics: 1
Total Posts: 103
Oof! Sorry that happened! On the bright side, the patch is pretty easy and should be invisible to anyone not in the know. It's something that's happened to lots of people, including me. You didn't really ask for comments but here goes, anyway It's another one of those "learning opportunities" (Personally, I'm getting tired of learning opportunities!) and now that the dust has settled perhaps it can instructional.

I don't think that router speed contributed except to the distance the chip flew. I'm a fan of higher bit speeds when possible and rabbeting bits can be run pretty fast. I think there may have been three other contributing factors:

1) Fir. It's brittle compared to spruce, more like redwood. When I rout redwood, I take several passes rather than doing one. This looks like a fairly deep channel, going all the way through the side. That maybe should have been done in two passes.
2) There appears to be a lot of glue on the lining. Is it possible that this area wasn't well bonded? That there was a gap between the soundboard and the lining? Looks like there was.
3) You were routing in the wrong direction! Had you been doing a climbing cut -- moving the router from right to left as viewed from above -- the bit would have been cutting toward the body rather than away from it. A climbing cut is often preferred for doing the bass upper bout and the treble lower bout because the direction of rotation doesn't cause this sort of blow-out.

Having said that, be aware of the dangers associated with climbing cuts and use them with caution and only when necessary!

Hope that's helpful.
Rick

Mar 25, 10 | 9:29 pm
DanB

Total Topics: 50
Total Posts: 272
Rick,

Thanks for the input, although the picture is a little decieving. The glue is from when I was about to patch it, I squeezed off a quick picture, so that's all wet and right as the patch went down.

As for the direction, when it actually ripped off I was going the correct direction, although I had try to "change" directions when it started making some chatter, and decided it wasn't a good idea, and went back to where I should have been. And then it decided to rip my top off ;D Maybe I should have keep being a rebel??

Anyways, I won't know how p*ssed I really am until I see how good/bad the patch worked out for me.

Dan

Mar 25, 10 | 10:00 pm
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
Dan, I have pached a similar mistake. You can't possibly tell where it is. Rick is right, climbing cuts are great any time the bit rotation can pull the grain away from the rest of the board.

Use a razor and cut a perfectly vertical cut right along the grain....then glue another peice right back next to it. You'll never notice it once its all sanded.

Mar 25, 10 | 10:19 pm
DanB

Total Topics: 50
Total Posts: 272
I had patched it, and glued it. I just checked it out and it's basically invisible. I was stressing it at first because I've given my self a motivational schedule I guess you could say, and I didn't want to lose motivation from a flaw, but if anything this is a small confidence booster.

I actually plan to bring this guitar up to Rockford May 1st for that get together. Jim had asked me to bring up some stuff if I wanted, and I was going to finished up my cutaway, and bring this as a guitar in progress when the bodies done. I am still impressed with how much I've gotten done in 4 days from start to now.

Oh, by the way... Anyone who knows the answer. Is there any reason you can't finish a guitar before cutting a neck joint? Or can you cut a neck joint just fine after it's finished?

Dan

Mar 25, 10 | 10:23 pm
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Dan -- for future reference regarding direction of routing ... here's a page from my Martin manual. This page refers to the trimming of back and top overhangs, but routing in this way is also recommended for the routs for binding and purfling. I have never experienced a chip out using this method. (It is also shown in the Stewmac manual.)


Mar 26, 10 | 6:28 am
Kevin Sjostrand

Total Topics: 84
Total Posts: 981
This always makes me nervous. I have relgued my back on, and am gluing the top on tonight. Tomorrow I will be doing the trimming with my router. I have not yet had a problem following the direction of cut instructions ala Bill Cory (and Stewmac), but when I see someone else have a problem, I still get nervous. It makes me want to trim with a hand saw and file.

Kevin

Mar 26, 10 | 10:11 am
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
Bill's instructions are right on the mark!

As for speed of the bit --- faster is better, unless you are using very large diameter cutters.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

Mar 26, 10 | 12:14 pm
DanB

Total Topics: 50
Total Posts: 272
Well, I fixed that patch, worked out perfect. Routed out the purfling, got some decent tear outs.

I'm going to go with the assumption that it's the fir, being bridle and hard as Rick Davis said.

The first time when I got the tear out, despite how the picture looks, the pass I was doing was a climbing cut, that could have maybe been blamed on little glue in that section I'm not sure. But I had made sure my passes were all right, and I was doing the climbing cuts correctly, and I was. The only spots that I have chatter and tear out is every single climbing cut. I'm going to have to figure out a way that's not too horrible unattractive of a patch, because I've got chunks missing that will show. Not sure what I'm going to do, but I'm extremely disapointed at how bad of a turn this build has taken.

I'm probably going to stay away from Fir for a while, because I've never had this happen before. I took every precaution when routing, that I'm aware of, even after I made the first mistake and got input, I double checked everything that I had done, on the purfling despite it being a .030" purfling strip, I took 2 passes like Rick had suggested for the initial channel and I got tear out still, while doing climing cuts. If anyone else has any other suggests of how it happened, I'm all ears, but I'm about to settle on it being the wood its self.

Anyways, any suggetions for patches? I'll get pictures sometime, but I've lost alot of motivation on this build.

Dan

Mar 26, 10 | 3:30 pm
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 257
Dan, I hate to hear about your problems with this. There's a patch on my build that can be seen because of a routing error, so I know the feeling. And there's probably a lot of guys on here that know it too.
I think you're right about the wood and possibly a worn router bit. Wish I had a suggestion for a patch, but without a pic I'm not much help.
Good luck, keep at it.
Bob

Mar 26, 10 | 4:08 pm
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Dan -- one more thing that can also contribute to a tearout like ou experienced, even when routing in the "right direction," is the amount of overhang you're dealing with. The more overhang there is, the more likely the router bit will catch a piece that isn't anchored by glue, and will splinter it off the way yours looks to have happened.

Also, if you rout for your binding without first routing the overhang flush to the sides, it's more likely that you'll get tearout just because you're cutting into more overhang.

Looking at the distribution of the glue on the kerfed lining where the tearout happened, it also looks like that it dried white, as if that particular section might not have had a good glue bond, like Rick said. That would have made it easier to rip away.

Sorry if this repeats info from above -- I didn't read all of the posts in detail.

Bill

Mar 27, 10 | 7:41 am
DanB

Total Topics: 50
Total Posts: 272
Bill, I snapped the picture off right as I was about to put the patch on, so that glue shown is fresh. I also did use a flush cut router bit to get the sides trued to the side before routing. Honestly, unless there's something I'm forgetting I want to just say it's the fir top being bridle like Rick stated.

I don't know how long router bits general last, but this is only the third guitar I've routed with this stewmac bit, so I'd like to think my bit isn't dull, but who knows.

I'll post a picture when I get a chance of the new tear out, but I've come to the conclusion, I may just try a sunburst finish. That way I can fill the tear out and chatter up with what ever I want basically, and do a thin black line around the edge of the guitar, and sunburst in. May or may not look good on this guitar, but I'm sure it will look better than ugly patches, or chatter holes.

Dan

Mar 27, 10 | 10:17 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
After doing my sister's zebrawood guitar (pictures to come soon), I am more and more likeing the look of a hardwood back and sides with a black face.....especially if the top isn't cosmetically ideal. I think its a sharp look that really calls attention to a nice looking back/side combo.

Mar 27, 10 | 10:41 am
Running Dog

Total Topics: 1
Total Posts: 103
Dan,

I don't think the bit's dull but it's pretty easy to run a fingernail across it and check. I am confused about the climbing cut/not climbing cut discussion. From the photo, you were routing the bass upper bout, moving from the headblock toward the waist. Unless your router runs backward the cutting edge of the bit was moving away from the guitar and tending to split out the waste. That's NOT a climbing cut. You'll get more chip out and splitting working in that direction.

Rick

Mar 27, 10 | 11:25 am
DanB

Total Topics: 50
Total Posts: 272
I had been doing a climbing cut, moving from the waist to the head block. I was getting chatter and started climbing the wrong direction, and decided that probably wasn't a good idea. Went back to doing a climbing cut, and the bit hooked up on some of the chatter it had made, and ripped the piece out of there.

Like I said the picture is deceiving in a couple ways. It shows me starting a channel the wrong way, and shows wet glue there.

And when I did the purfling channel, I made absolute sure to not even attempt going backwards, although that hadn't been the problem the first time, I just wanted to do it the correct way. And every climbing cut had tear out and chatter.

Dan

Mar 27, 10 | 1:04 pm
Tony_in_NYC

Total Topics: 29
Total Posts: 448
Flush cutting the top and routing the channels scares the bajeezus out of me. I make my binding channels in several passes taking a little off at a time. First, it helps keep the tear out risk to a minimum in my opinion, and second, I can slowly make the channels the right depth. I am not in a rush to get my channels done so I can take my sweet time routing them! On my first kit, which is Sapele, I had zero chips or tear outs. On my second, which is walnut, I thought I was some sort of pro, and tried to do the binding channels in two passes. Well...on pass #1, I got lots of nice little chip outs on the side that I am currently filling. Nothing major mind you, but on the other side of the body, when I made the channels in 4 passes, I have no chips at all. And yes, I did follow the directions of StewMac, Bill Cory, and Ken Cierp and routed in the prescribed sequence and direction. By the way, I used a brand new bit on both guitars for extra insurance against chips. And also because I like buying tools and tool accessories. But mostly because I wanted to avoid chip and tear outs.

Apr 07, 10 | 4:59 am
DanB

Total Topics: 50
Total Posts: 272
Honestly, that tear out that I have the picture shown of up there was an easy invisible patch. The true damage was when I cut the purfling channel, in which I took 2 passes at. 2 passes at a .03" channel and I got chip out that will definitely be shown. Like I said, I want to say it has something to do with the fir top being bridle and hard, but I don't know. A sunburst finish should cover it up.

Dan

Apr 07, 10 | 10:17 am
Gary Palmer of Palmer's Stringed Instruments

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 65
Down spiral bits and down cut rebate/rabett bits are particularly useful in terms of avoiding unwanted damage and tear out. ;-)

Apr 12, 10 | 3:12 am
longbow

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 74
I make burrs for a living, we call them left hand spiral. They push back at you, so I can see why they could help here. In a casting hole a long shank or flex shank can pull or thead its way in, where left hand tools wo'nt get sucked in. I've seen some stores call them left hand cut, that is wrong, If so they would cut in reverse, I make those too. Left hand will not cut as well but sometimes give better finish...... 2 cents

Apr 12, 10 | 4:56 am



Deprecated: Function eregi() is deprecated in /home/bluescreek/domains/kitguitars/pm/lib/member.fns.php on line 2298

You must be a registered and logged in member to post in this forum