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Well I'm not as smart as I think I am!
Author
Post
Kevin Sjostrand

Total Topics: 84
Total Posts: 984
I will tell this on myself in hopes that it helps someone else in the future.
I am building with Cocobolo. I have heard that it is a good idea to use epoxy on this wood. I use it for knife handles, and epoxy it so I know that works. I have also heard that you can use glue like LMI's white glue if you wipe down the wood well with acetone first before gluing. I decided I would stay somewhat traditional and use the LMI glue. This past week I glued the back onto the rims. Saturday morning I was going to trim the back flush with the sides. I had a bit more material left than I wanted to take down with the router so I started hand sawing the majority of the overhang off. As I was sawing, a section of the back to rim glue up popped loose. As I worked around the rim, I was able to pretty much pull it apart, and....my back braces also were popping off. GOOD GRIEF!. So, I didn't get mad, I just took it in stride and decided I needed to take this thing apart, so I pulled the braces off, seperated the two back halves, removed the end and neck blocks. I chiseled away a section of kerfing, and it was stuck, so I do have a good glue up on the kerfing, and the endblocks were probably okay, but I decided I would be sure and epoxied them back on. The back is rejoined, and the braces are remade. I will use epoxy on the braces, and to reglue the back to the rims. A lesson learned and all is well now. It is still a good idea to wipe down with acetone when using epoxy too.
I am wondering if I should use epoxy to install the Koa bindings?
I did get my top bracing carved and voiced (as best I know how) so I made some progress while redoing the rest of the guitar.


Kevin

Mar 14, 10 | 6:55 pm
longbow

Total Topics: 4
Total Posts: 74
Wow.. When stuff happens like that I just go blank. Like c-clamps falling off a shelf and smashing my back owe. But yours was glued up, its lucky it pulled off or you would of really had a nightmere. I can'nt believe the braces came off, was it bad glue? I wonder if you did a test wt. titebond on some scrap and try that. You would'nt think you would have to use epoxy to put braces on but they should sure stay on with that. What a drag, I went back and looked at those nice pic's. of the dred. so nice and clean. Thanks for the warning. Dave L

Mar 15, 10 | 5:34 am
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Hey Kevin -- that's a big bummer and good learning experience at the same time. Funny how they happen together a lot, huh?

One question: Was/is your LMI glue fresh? Under six months old if stored at room temp, up to 12 months if stored in a frige? Does it still smell "sweet?"

Just wondering if the freshness question could be eliminated here.

Thanks-Bill

Ps. I'm sure you'll get it together perfectly.

Mar 15, 10 | 7:04 am
dviss

Total Topics: 18
Total Posts: 165
I too was wondering about the glue freshness when I read your post, Kevin. I'm using a bottle of LMI white, 1 year open, that still smells sweet like when I just opened it. But have been wondering if I'm tempting fate using it still. It is drying clear and very hard, so I've used it.

It does seem like the glue held up on the kerfing and endblocks though, so maybe it is the oily cocobolo to blame?

nice recovery though...

Mar 15, 10 | 9:49 am
Herman

Total Topics: 38
Total Posts: 480
In the past LMI gave me the advise to glue cocobolo with their wood-epoxy. The first thought was that it was an advise because of commercial interest. To be sure I glued with the epoxy though. All the braces are fine since.
But now Kevin has met a serious issue with his braces, my guess is that LMI has a point on the cocobolo thing.

Hey Kevin,
Make an art of making a mess, live in doubt for one day, tear down the warzone and start over. One comfort: you're not the only one doing it.

Herman

Mar 15, 10 | 10:17 am
Kevin Sjostrand

Total Topics: 84
Total Posts: 981
Bill,
I surprised myself. I didn't get mad or stress out, I just tackled it cause it had to be right.
Well it is a new bottle of glue...only a couple of months old and it still smells sweet. I think I just neglected to really soak the oil out of the contact area with acetone. I'm pretty sure I wiped it, but obviously not well enough.
I am surely glad that it came apart now, and not after binding was on, or, heaven for bid, when it was all done and my son-in-law was playing it.....can you picture it falling into pieces right there in his lap????

I reglued the back halves using epoxy, but found that to get a good fit, too much epoxy is squeezed out....for epoxy to work, there has to be some in the joint, so I cleaned that up, wiped the edges down really good with acetone, and reglued with the AR glue. It turned out very good and solid.

I was a little hesitant to leave the kerfing in, but I really seems to be holding well.

I will reglue the back braces with epoxy and not clamp too tightly, should be okay, and I can clean up with acetone before the epoxy sets, leaves a nice clean install.

Mar 15, 10 | 3:53 pm
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Wow, Kevin, I forgot that this one was headed for India! Like you said, it's good that it came apart when it did. If it came apart in your son-in-law's hands, just imagine his dilemma:

The Phone Call:
"Hey, how's the guitar?" Kevin asks, chuckling as he adds. "Hasn't fallen apart yet?"
Silence. More silence.
Kevin says, "Hello? Hello?"
Finally: "Well, ... "


Interesting isn't it, how we realize, after a certain point in our "building careers," that things can be fixed and there's nothing to be gained by getting upset. I'm sure this one will be a beauty!

Bill

Mar 15, 10 | 4:54 pm
Rick

Total Topics: 0
Total Posts: 49
Kevin,

Sorry i am late to the party on this. I read in a woodworking journal that wiping oily woods does not always work. The acetone removes the oil but it is soon replaced by other oil wicking to the area so the problem may return. I have not yet worked with oily woods so I can't say from experience. I hope the rest works out well for you.

Rick

Mar 15, 10 | 5:41 pm
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
Good job on the fix, Kevin. I think we need to start writing a book about em!

Mar 16, 10 | 10:13 am
Kevin Sjostrand

Total Topics: 84
Total Posts: 981
Bill,
That would not be a pleasant phone conversation for sure.
Rick, I believe the trick is not get the oil out of the contact area, so the glue can penetrate a bit. I imagine that the oil in the wood might come back to the joint, but I don't think it would weaken the glue joint, but then I'm no chemist either!

I am still wondering about how to attach the KOA binding. Will epoxy work out okay there? It will be a little harder to clean up afterward.

Kevin

Mar 17, 10 | 11:07 am
Ken Hundley

Total Topics: 40
Total Posts: 2169
I used Testors Wood Model Cement glue for koa binding once, and white glue the other time. They both worked perfectly. I did not wipe at all, and they were glued to rosewood.

Mar 18, 10 | 10:01 am
Kevin Sjostrand

Total Topics: 84
Total Posts: 981
Yeah Ken, but this is KOA to COCO, I wonder should I use epoxy to be safe?

Kevin

Mar 18, 10 | 12:00 pm
Herman

Total Topics: 38
Total Posts: 480
Kevin, On my cocobolo baritone I used LMI white glue to fit the bindings. No epoxy. They still stay put.
In the past I used epoxy to the bindings one time and the top got dirty with it. What a mess! The top was damaged a bit while getting the epoxy off. Won't do that again.
IMO Most of the binding is attached to the spruce of the top top and lining so that should be enough to hold with white glue.

2ct.
Herman

Mar 19, 10 | 12:50 am
blues creek guitars Authorized Martin Repair Ctr

Total Topics: 52
Total Posts: 1011
I do not recommend epoxy on any part of a guitar. I think learning what glue to use where and how to use it is one of the many parts of the building process one needs to learn.
Cocobolo is high in oils so it may be worth your trouble to wipe down before gluing. Naphtha and mineral spirits would be best.

John Hall
Blues Creek Guitars Inc.
Authorized CF Martin Repair Center

Mar 19, 10 | 2:21 am
Terry

Total Topics: 41
Total Posts: 220
Cocobolo Blues revisited...

I'm building with cocobolo also.... Concerned about using "white" glues or epoxy, I went with CA (thick). So far so good. My problem is with the finish.

Terry

Mar 19, 10 | 4:32 pm
Kevin Sjostrand

Total Topics: 84
Total Posts: 981
Hey Terry, any pictures you can share of your Coco guitar so far?
I have everything ready to reglue the braces to the back tomorrow. The fit is very good. I will wipe down with naptha and use epoxy for these braces. I will feel more confident that they will hold.
Herman, I believe you are probably correct on the binding glueing, most of the contact will be with the spruce and mahogany kerfing, so it should be fine.
I was going to use a Cocobolo bridge, but I think I've changed my mind and will stick with EIR. I already have one made up and it will go nicely with the EIR fretboard anyway on this guitar. The peghead veneer and the pickguard will be Cocobolo.
I have to get moving on this one. I must be spraying it by the first of June. The neck is still a hunk of sapele!!

Kevin

Mar 19, 10 | 9:12 pm
Terry

Total Topics: 41
Total Posts: 220
There are some on my facebook pages... I'm not sure how to get that link here... Terry Paxton is the full name...

Mar 20, 10 | 5:10 am
Terry

Total Topics: 41
Total Posts: 220
...I think this link will work...
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#!/album.php?aid=2027247&id=1537659072

Mar 20, 10 | 1:34 pm
Kevin Sjostrand

Total Topics: 84
Total Posts: 981
Terry,
Well I'd love to see it but I don't do Facebook. Can you post some here?

So I have glued the braces back on using 2 part epoxy. This went very well. I have glued the back to the rims with epoxy. This went well also, however I got more squeeze out than I like, and you can't clean up the epoxy like you can the AR glue. It is clear, and won't really show, but I like it perfectly clean inside the box, and now this one won't be that way. I glued the top on using AR, and that was successful since most of the contact is with the kerfing.
So today I trimmed the overhang of the top and back with the flush cut bit, and routed my binding/purfling channels. Tomorrow I will install the end wedge. I will post some pictures of the box with the wedge tomorrow night.

I also started working on my neck blank, planing surfaces flat and square. This neck is sapele and I tell you it really planes and carves nicely. I think I'm going to like it.
More tomorrow.

Kevin
















Mar 27, 10 | 8:36 pm



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