You are currently viewing Kit Guitar Forum archives. To view the current forums go to www.KitGuitarsForum.com/board



Log-in
Register
Members


Finishing in general
Author
Post
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 261
I'm opening a new thread on this because I think I got lost here in the finishing department. I'll probably buy a book on it, but here's where I am right now.
I used HSF5100 for pore fill. I don't think I did a very good job, because I can see little dots, which I'm betting are the "fisheyes" people talk about.
Then used Emtech 6000 for the finish. I didn't "level" until about the 6th coat.
After that, I waited until about the 9th or 10th, using 320 grit those times.
I went to 400 grit everytime after that, but I'm betting I wasn't agressive enough because I started to see "waves" running with the grain down the 2 sides.
I think I'm at about the 14th coat now, so tonite I got really agressive with 600 grit. Even after that, I thought I had some waviness on the top and bottom so I went back to 320, then 400, then 600 and am about to put down another coat.
Could someone explain what I could look for as far as levelling? What should I see? How much pressure? Any resources that you recommend online?
I'm almost tempted to go back to bare wood and start again - of course doing a better pore filling job.
This is about 2 weeks worth of effort, but if that's what's needed, I'll do it.
Thanks,
Bob

Feb 18, 10 | 4:00 pm
Tony_in_NYC

Total Topics: 29
Total Posts: 448
I suggest you begin to train yourself to love satin finishes. You dont see the small flaws with satin. LOL
I am joking of course. Well...sort of...but I already like satin finishes!

Feb 18, 10 | 4:46 pm
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 257
I just put on another thin coat, and evidently my agressiveness is working. It's cleaned up a bunch. Not sure how many of the other coats I knocked off, but it is looking better. And satin ain't bad either lol.

I'm still interested in the above, what to look for, etc., plus I'm going to pull a question I put under another topic. I haven't had feedback on it yet, and will be getting to need it soon. Here goes:

Is there a problem using a "Pad" (square) sander as opposed to a round RO sander?
Also, I just bought a "Micro mesh introductory wood kit" from Peachtree Woodworking Supply, which has 1 3"x4" sheet of each of the following grits: 1500, 1800, 2400, 3200, 3600, 4000, 6000, 8000 and 12,000. I got 2 sets of that, plus 10 sheets each of 800, 1200, and 1500 in a kit.
Is there a need to use all of these? Which can be skipped? Their part #'s are 306 and 97 respectively if anyone is interested.
Would it be better to sand with a block and go "in line" with the grain instead of using a sander?
Thanks.
Bob

Feb 18, 10 | 4:50 pm
Ken Cierp

Total Topics: 58
Total Posts: 2262
It possible to use a powered sander (RO) in the process but I really think they can cause more and more serious problems. Hand sanding with pink or blue foam insulation used for the block is the way to go. Actually there is something to look for when "leveling". Of course if you have bumps its not level -- but the trick is to sand until there are "NO" shiny spots or dots --- the shiny spots are the dips in the surface and everything above the dip needs to be removed. That is when the surface becomes truly level, not matter how many coats are applied its this flattening or leveling that is the key to a smooth reflective finish. It not necessary to go with the grain once a layer of coating is established, however, if you have not completely removed the scraches before applying the next coat of finish and they run across the grain, be assured they will leap right to your eye and be very noticable. Micro-mesh 2400 is the same as 1200 grit wet or dry and that is plenty fine for between coat and leveling. The finer grits are for polishing.

Ken

Kenneth Michael Guitars est. 1978

Feb 18, 10 | 7:01 pm
Tony_in_NYC

Total Topics: 29
Total Posts: 448
I dont know about guitar finishes, but I have wet sanded automotive paint to get a mirror finish. I do know you dont want to use a RO sander for wet sanding auto paint. I assume since the desired result is the same, you wouldnt want to RO sand the guitar.
I was wondering about sanding pressure. With car paint, you want to use a sanding block and virtually no pressure with your hand. Just let the weight of the block and the paper do the work. With 1500 grit you can easily take out the orange peel from a car's finish. Is it the same with nitro and wet sanding? Inquiring minds want to know.

Feb 18, 10 | 8:10 pm
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
Hi Bob,

Finishing can be very enjoyable if everything is working or amazingly frustrating if something isn't working! A heavy coat of EM6000 will really raise the grain. On a spruce top, the grain will look like mountains and valleys! Hardwood backs and sides usually don't react so much. But part of your waviness may simply be due to the grain raising from the moisture. If that is the case, aggressive leveling may be called for.

I usually don't level the first time until about the 6th coat, and I am pretty agressive. I use 400 grit and a Motorguard rubber sanding block. I do just like Ken Cierp states and sand until all the glossy spots are gone except for a few pin holes from open pores. I rarely sand through to wood, but I am certain several coats get removed during this process. But once leveled, I can build up subsequent layers without worrying about a need for aggressive leveling again.

As far as how to level. I don't use a RO. All is done by hand and doesn't really take more than 30 to 60 minutes or so to do the body. I always sand from the center towards the edges, making sure to not apply too much pressure near the edge. In fact, I don't let sandpaper touch the edge line until I am all done spraying, and then I may only use 800 grit along that edge line. 400 grit paper along an edge will remove finish in a heartbeat. Make sure you have plenty of light, and situate yourself so you can see how the finish looks with every pass of the sanding block. Sneak up to the edges, and only remove enough finish to dull the entire surface. I use Klingspors good stearated paper for leveling, and to do the top, I'd likely use one to one and a half sheets of paper, cut into fourths. I'll work the sanding block from different angles to avoid sanding a groove in the surface and to keep the surface nice and level.

Once the big leveling is done, I'll shoot three to six more coats then start the drop filling to fill any open pores. To make spotting the pin holes easier, I lightly scuff the surface with 400 grit. After the pores have been drop filled, I'll level good with 400 grit then shoot more lacquer. Any subsequent sanding is done with 600 grit to avoid leaving scratch marks in the finish that could be visible beneath the finish later. Unless you have massive areas of open pores, I wouldn't sand back to bare wood. I'd simply get a fine modelers brush and put drops of fill in any remaining pores. If the pores are really deep, you may need to go over the pores twice.

I typically shoot three to six more coats to then finish up. Keep at it. If you remove too much finish, you can always build back up more coats. Then after a couple of guitars, you'll have it figured out!

Ken

Feb 18, 10 | 8:18 pm
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
Just re reading my note. I didn't mean to type 'drops of fill in any remaining pores' I meant 'drops to fill in any remaining pores'. Just to be clear, lacquer is used to fill those pores not pore filler. Sorry for the confusion.

Ken

Feb 18, 10 | 8:22 pm
John S.

Total Topics: 16
Total Posts: 94
Ken, what are you using for the final buffing on the EM6000?

(BTW the SE Asian fish guitar is a beauty)

John

Feb 22, 10 | 9:05 am
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
John,

I use an Ingersol Rand 3" pneumatic polisher with 4" foam pads. The polishes are Menzerna's car polishes. I use the pre-polish paste followed by a medium light cut liquid polish. The combo works very well. Thanks for the complement on the OM!

Ken

Feb 22, 10 | 11:15 am
naccoachbob

Total Topics: 26
Total Posts: 257
Quick questions as I've already micro-meshed the neck (WOW).
I have some Cut Polish, Fine Polish, and Super Fine Polish from LMI.
Should I run thru them like I did with the micro-mesh papers?
If so, what kind of household fabric could I use? Is an old tee shirt going to scratch the finish?
The rosewood headplate veneer is really shiny, and the headplate sides look soooooooooooooooooooo deep. The back of the neck looks good, but I'm wondering if it could come up a notch with the 3 polishes I mentioned.
Gonna start the body tomorrow.
Thanks for your advice.
Bob

Feb 26, 10 | 3:01 pm



You must be a registered and logged in member to post in this forum