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Humidity Normal, Glued Back to Rim
Author
Post
Adaboy

Total Topics: 64
Total Posts: 514
Humidity here has been in the 20% range for 3 weeks. Turned my nice radiused top and back into a revers radius! Finally rained this week and I place both out on the back porch for a couple of evenings and everything is back to normal now.

Humidity was 42% in my house this morning so I decided to take the plunge and glue the back to the rim. I placed the 16ft radius dish in my go bar deck and laid the back in the dish. I placed 2 go bars in the center of the back to make sure it conformed to the 16ft radius. The rims are in the mold and I laid the both on the back and used go bars around the perimeter of the rim for pressure......and the mold added a little weight.

Here are a couple of pics:




Jan 16, 10 | 8:47 pm
Ken C

Total Topics: 30
Total Posts: 554
Adaboy, No doubt humidity changes can be a pain. I got stalled for a couple of weeks due to low humidity. Nice to be back at it, eh? When is the top going on?

Ken

Jan 17, 10 | 9:28 am
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Man o Man, that Arkansas humidity! It's looking good -- Hey, nice extra brace for a soundport!

Bill

Jan 17, 10 | 11:13 am
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 332
I'm no expert, but I haven't seen a back glued on like that before (I think). Would it be better to have had the mold on the bottom and the back on top, with the go bars pressing the back to the rim? don't let my question alarm you, I'm just wondering. probably all the same. your way may even be better, with the weight from the mold pushing down?

I have suffered exactly this same kinda set back, but it'll keep being winter here in michigan for another six weeks, or two months, at least!


Jan 17, 10 | 1:11 pm
Adaboy

Total Topics: 64
Total Posts: 509
Martin, I'm no expert either! The reason I did it this way is the back is laying in the radius dish so it conforms perfectly to the dish radius during glue-up. If I sand the rim in this radius dish, then lay the back in the same radius dish and place a go-bar or two in the middle of the back to ensure the back conforms to the radius.......then in theory everything should fit perfectly. And it seems to have worked well.

Ken, the top is 95% done......just have to add a cover brace on the X intersection, clean up, and make another brace that runs along the rear of the bridge plate between X brace legs (which I will fit but not install initially). Since this is my first build and I'm not sure how much to scallop the X braces, I will have this brace ready to glue in place to stiffen the area behind the bridge in case I scallop the X braces too far. This was suggested to me by Mario Proulx.

I'm making the brace out of Brazillian rosewood (also a suggestion of Marios). He fixed one of his early builds that had the X brace scalloped too far using this method and he said both he and the owner both thought it increased the bass response. Bryan Kimsey has used this brace several times on repairs of old Martins and he also thinks it increases bass response. Mario suggested fitting it before closing the box so it will be simple to install later. Mario makes one for every guitar he builds. After he is done with the instrument, if he likes the sound he never installs it. If the sound is lacking, He glues it in place. He has a 6 year waiting list on his custom built guitars so I guess he is doing something correct.

Another fun fact, Mario said one could learn a lot about scalloping the X brace and the affect it has on tone by building the guitar with too little scallop.....then after it's built, scallop the X brace through the sound hole a little at a time (say, each time you change strings for instance)....till one day you will go too far. Then install the brace along the rear of the bridge plate glued to X brace legs and top, and it will bring the guitar back. Then you would know how the tone will change if you scallop a little more and have an idea when to stop scalloping.

Jan 17, 10 | 4:15 pm
Adaboy

Total Topics: 64
Total Posts: 509
Bill, I decided to add that after reading about you doing something similar. My soundhole is on the small side (similar to a Norman Blake model). So I decided I would give myself the option to later add a sound port if the guitar is boomy or if I want to change the air resonance.

I'm sure everyone has read about Tony Rice's guitar (originally owned by Clarence White) that has the oversize sound hole (4 9/16") and it's legendary sound. Mario Proulx builds bluegrass guitars and he uses a 4 3/8" diameter soundhole on OM sized guitars. My sound port is sized so if I later open it up, it will add the equivalent area to equal a 4 3/8" diameter soundhole.

Jan 17, 10 | 4:26 pm
Running Dog

Total Topics: 1
Total Posts: 103
Looks good and the go-bars probably work fine -- I see lots of squeeze-out (or something) around the head- and tail- blocks. I'd probably use clamps on the blocks just to be sure of getting enough pressure. But if the joint is tight, I guess it's unnecessary.

I've built a few guitars with a transverse brace at the lower end of the bridge plate, lapped into the lower X and tucked into the linings. Is that what you're discussing? If so, I don't see how it could improve bass specifically, though it could help with weak bracing in the lower bout. Installing it after the fact would be a real pain!

Jan 17, 10 | 5:23 pm
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 332
just fyi, Mario said a week or two ago that he is 7-to-9 years (!) behind, now.

Jan 18, 10 | 7:07 am
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 332
don't mean to hijack the thread, but, also, fyi here are pics of the brace Mario glues behind the bridge plate. Kimsey dubbed it the PMTE, or Proulx Magic Tone Enhancer.

http://www.proulxguitars.com/buildup/images/rosettes%20and%20purflings/DCP03899.jpg

http://www.proulxguitars.com/buildup/images/rosettes%20and%20purflings/DCP03905.jpg


Jan 18, 10 | 9:25 am
Adaboy

Total Topics: 64
Total Posts: 509
That is what Bryan calls it, ha. It's not original to Mario, but Mario is the first I've heard that fits the brace before closing the box to make it a lot easier to glue in later if needed.

FYI, in the pics Martin links to Mario is using a laminated spruce brace with carbon fiber in the middle. Mario told me later that he thinks hardwood sounds better and has went back to using Brazillian rosewood for this brace.

RD, I assume it enhances bass by adding mass to the bridge area......maybe the same as installing a heavier bridge.

Jan 18, 10 | 9:31 am
Herman

Total Topics: 38
Total Posts: 480
Not about this topic, but Adaboy, drop me a mail. It's about the Everett DVD.

Jan 18, 10 | 10:05 am
Adaboy

Total Topics: 64
Total Posts: 509
Herman, dropped you a private mail with my e-mail address.

Jan 18, 10 | 11:03 am
PaulF

Total Topics: 28
Total Posts: 65
Humidity doesn't seem to change much over here in the UK it is always around 60%. Too damn damp for my liking but it does mean that I don't have to worry about changes ... unless I sent one to USA which is not very likely at the moment.

Jan 20, 10 | 5:33 am
Adaboy

Total Topics: 64
Total Posts: 509
Herman, I haven't heard from you so I'll post my e-mail address here. I'll space it our where it doesn't appear as an e-mail address so some program won't pick it up and send me spam.

adaboy @ att . net

Look forward to hearing from you.

Jan 20, 10 | 9:25 am
Adaboy

Total Topics: 64
Total Posts: 509
Paul, humidity here seems to be constantly changing.

Jan 20, 10 | 9:26 am
PaulF

Total Topics: 28
Total Posts: 65
I guess that is one of the disadvantages, or advantages, depending on what way you see it but living on a relatively small island surounded by water we seem to be contantly living in a damp atmosphere.

Many years ago I spent 5 weeks over the xmas period in Ohio and I couldn't believe how dry the air was compared to England.

Jan 20, 10 | 12:26 pm
Bill Cory

Total Topics: 158
Total Posts: 3584
Darryl -- I sent Herman your home address from my records; he emailed me and asked me to contact you -- for some reason his emails would not go through to your address that you posted. I'm sure he'll send the DVD real soon.

Bil

Jan 20, 10 | 1:19 pm
Adaboy

Total Topics: 64
Total Posts: 509
Bill, it's possible that you have my old e-mail address as I switched from Cox cable to ATT U'verse not too long ago. The e-mail address is the same......just replace "cox" with "att".

I'll list both old and new e-mail addresses below.....but I'll replace "@" with "at".

Old address: adaboy"at"cox.net

New address: adaboy"at"att.net

Just remove the parenthesis and replace "at" with @.

Jan 20, 10 | 2:50 pm
Herman

Total Topics: 38
Total Posts: 480
Yes, that's it. My mail was sent to "cox".
I hope you don't blame Bill that he gave me your adress. Anyway, tomorrow I'll send the DVD off.

Jan 21, 10 | 11:11 am
Adaboy

Total Topics: 64
Total Posts: 509
Wow, many thanks Herman! What do you need from me?......shipping? address? Anything?

Jan 21, 10 | 3:01 pm
Herman

Total Topics: 38
Total Posts: 480
No, adaboy I got it all. But honestly, today 2 colleges called in sick and I had to work a little over. Could not make it to the postoffice on time. But tomorrow it goes off for shure.

Jan 22, 10 | 9:35 am
Adaboy

Total Topics: 64
Total Posts: 509
Just wanted to post a quick update. There are many ways to skin a cat, but this method seems to have worked well. Yesterday I glued in the final 2 pieces of glue joint bracing that run between the neck/heel blocks and the nearest back brace. Just removed the go bars and the back fits the r16ft radius dish perfectly! No brace I push on moves as the back is perfectly shaped to the radius. My gauge shows it's 42% humidity here inside the house. I'm sure the back will no longer fit perfectly if the RH moves very much......but this is the range I want it fitting and it does.

Jan 24, 10 | 11:11 am
Adaboy

Total Topics: 64
Total Posts: 509
Update.

I removed the back/rim from the mold and routed off the excess of the back protruding beyond the sides. Wow, it looks like a guitar!!! <big smile>

I'm very happy to report an excellent joint betweenback and rim. Even at the brace locations (which go all the way through the rim) the fit is fantastic. I credit this a lot to using Bill's method for cutting the brace inlets.......kudos!

Now, a little disappointment. My mold is 3" thick (4 layers of 3/4" MDF)......so when I level the top of the rims even with the top of the mold, the rim doesn't stick out far below the mould at the area where the heel will lay on the rim. so when I glued the rim to the back, I had to use a flashlight to whine in-between the mould and the back (which was laying in the radius dish) to see if I had the back centered. Well, you guessed it......even though I had it centered somewhere I let it move about 1/16" to the side. The zig-zag stripe down the back is perfectly centered at the bottom of the lower bout but is shifted 1/16" at the top of the upper bout. Bummer! I sure don't know how I missed this when inspecting after putting the go-bars in place......but I could just kick myself.

Maybe it won't show too bad. You would never notice it except comparing it to the joint line of the rim. You won't see the joint line once the neck is mounted but the end of the heel won't be perfectly centered with the zig-zag stripe.

One other mistake that I can correct much easier. I can't recall the proper name, but you have the back reinforcment stip that runs cross grain the lingth of the back. Mine is made up in sections that run between each back brace. Well, I laid the top on the guitar to see how well things were going to fit and wouldn't you know that the only one of these that doesn't fit perfectly is directly below the sound hole. It's not bad, but one end is slightly angled, instead of cut perfectly square, and it creates a shadow line making it look even worse! I will remove this one and fit another one and this shouldn't be too difficult. I have two pieces of this cross-grained material left over and neither is long enough.......so I just glued them together. I'll see if the glue line is invisible or not. Since this is so prominent, I'll order another one from John rather than use one that appears flawed.

I guess I should planet the reinforcment strip off then scape the glue off. I don't really want to use heat as I don't want to loosen the back joint or braces.

Jan 31, 10 | 10:35 am
Adaboy

Total Topics: 64
Total Posts: 509
Herman, I receive the video yesterday. Thanks!

Jan 31, 10 | 10:47 am
enalnitram (Martin Lane)

Total Topics: 47
Total Posts: 332
Darryl,
my first guitar has a back strip that is off also. And I know someone else on this site has said they built one that way also. (I forget who). it is a bummer now, but honestly I never think about it anymore, and no one ever notices. I play the guitar all the time. This is one of those things that you'll know to try to avoid next time.

for planing the back strip, do you have one of those teeny little planes that has a dinky little razor sized blade in it? it will work great for that, and is a must to have, anyway.

Jan 31, 10 | 12:24 pm



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